D&D 5E (2014) Rogues without Darkvision

[S'mon]

I don't generally find that 5e Rogues scout ahead in dungeons, no. If you want scouting, a wizard familiar is probably a much safer bet. Other editions have spells like Prying Eyes. Scouting ahead any distance tends to be suicidally dangerous so the group usually sticks together.

 

[Rhenny]

Leugren, I kind of agree with you. I've played half elf and elf rogues instead of human or halflings just to have darkvision.

I'd like to see an option that lets non-humans take a feat instead of one of their ability bonuses at 1st level so that rogues that don't have darkvision can take the skulker feat. At least that allows PC to function in dim light.

 

[Leugren]

Leugren, I kind of agree with you. I've played half elf and elf rogues instead of human or halflings just to have darkvision.

I'd like to see an option that lets non-humans take a feat instead of one of their ability bonuses at 1st level so that rogues that don't have darkvision can take the skulker feat. At least that allows PC to function in dim light.

Thanks, Rhenny. One of my players, a halfling rogue, was miserable enough that he was planning a two-level dip into the Warlock class--not for any roleplaying reasons, but simply to pick up Devil's Sight. This was a guy who typically wouldn't do things like that, so I have to believe that he was pretty miserable. I guess it didn't help that he was constantly being mocked by the wood elf ranger*. He found some Goggles of Night in his Christmas stocking before he could sell his soul.

*To be fair, at least half of the wood elf's barbs were directed at the halfling's "chubby, widdle baby legs", since he insisted on always wearing shorts.

 

[Rhenny]

Thanks, Rhenny. One of my players, a halfling rogue, was miserable enough that he was planning a two-level dip into the Warlock class--not for any roleplaying reasons, but simply to pick up Devil's Sight. This was a guy who typically wouldn't do things like that, so I have to believe that he was pretty miserable. I guess it didn't help that he was constantly being mocked by the wood elf ranger. He found some Goggles of Night in his Christmas stocking before he could sell his soul.

Like you, I'd do what I could to give the PC a chance to see in dark especially if it made him so miserable. I might even create a special background that would grant limited darkvision (20' or something). Even humans and halflings have variation, and I'm sure if we spent more time in the dark, we'd develop our senses.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

At least a rogue can now fully work in dim light. In 3e a rogue in dim light could not use sneak attack at all

Now it is up to the DM to not have only pitch black dungeons. And as others have told, you don't have pitch black dungeons all the time. If your group uses a torch there is an area of dim light you can gide in.

 

[Psikerlord#]

As I see it, the real problem is the switch of Elves over to Darkvision (from "night vision").

As a result, Halflings and Humans stand out as lacking darkvision. Rather than the races with darkvision standing out as having darkvision.

In a campaign where you travel with people with lanterns and torches, darkvision is of secondary importance. But if you can travel in a darkvision-complete party, darkvision becomes a huge advantage.

As to your specific concern:

Human rogues have no place in constantly dark places. They work decently above ground and in human cities where lots of action take place either at day or in lighted areas.

But since D&D is what it is; yes, as a human or halfling rogue, you would need to get darkvision. The sooner the better.

I agree that an all darkvision party has a massive advantage. I have found it turns the game into a weird kind of assassins/ambush theme.

Personally I think darkvision should be removed from the game. I prefer darkness to mean something, for the party to be cautiously moving through dungeons and dark forests with torches and lanterns, knowing that beyond their vision there might be monsters watching them. Darkvision is for monsters.

I am playing a low magic game now with humans only, and the atmosphere is definitely different, and personally I prefer it.

As for how thieves work without darkvision - its perfectly fine, they can hide and scout as usual during the day, and at night they either dont or have to be much more careful and use the enemies light source against them. Completely dark underground places are actually very rare - since elves, dwarves etc all need lights too, most places are lit. Even monsterous humanoids still tend to light their complexes dimly, just so they can see their mates across the eating hall. 60 ft darkvision is very short after all.

Having no dark vision does make the game harder, and more realistic. Both good reasons to remove it, imo. In fact I cant think of any good reason to keep dark vision.

edit: sorry, I meant PC based darkvision should be removed from the game. Monsters should have it.

 

[Rhenny]

I agree that an all darkvision party has a massive advantage. I have found it turns the game into a weird kind of assassins/ambush theme.

Personally I think darkvision should be removed from the game. I prefer darkness to mean something, for the party to be cautiously moving through dungeons and dark forests with torches and lanterns, knowing that beyond their vision there might be monsters watching them. Darkvision is for monsters.

I am playing a low magic game now with humans only, and the atmosphere is definitely different, and personally I prefer it.

As for how thieves work without darkvision - its perfectly fine, they can hide and scout as usual during the day, and at night they either dont or have to be much more careful and use the enemies light source against them. Completely dark underground places are actually very rare - since elves, dwarves etc all need lights too, most places are lit. Even monsterous humanoids still tend to light their complexes dimly, just so they can see their mates across the eating hall. 60 ft darkvision is very short after all.

Having no dark vision does make the game harder, and more realistic. Both good reasons to remove it, imo. In fact I cant think of any good reason to keep dark vision.

edit: sorry, I meant PC based darkvision should be removed from the game. Monsters should have it.

I can go either way, but I do agree that without darkvision it is much easier to get the spooky vibe and it makes the PCs much more careful.

Darkvision must really mess up the new adventure path, Curse of Strahd. It doesn't seem to play well with gothic horror. I bet that's one explanation for why all of the PCs (except for the one Tiefling) in Dice, Camera, Action are humans. It can make the dungeon crawling and night travel more spooky. (I haven't bought or read through it yet.)

Oh...and I just saw that thread on Darkvision in Curse of Strahd. Good stuff.

 

[Guest 6801328]

For me, as soon as a "sneaky rogue" gets within the darkvision range of monsters, he's seen. Period.

Is the same true for rogues being within the range of non-darkvision monsters in dim light? I.e., is it possible for a rogue in your game to sneak up close to a castle guard and then sneak away again?

Seems to me that ruling that out suggests that the monster/guard does nothing but stare in the direction that the rogue will be coming from.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I neglected to mention that our games involve a lot of traditional dungeon crawls, so much, though not all, of the action takes place in pitch darkness.

That's interesting, because when I think of "traditional dungeon crawls", I think of the adventure modules I ran in my youth, and they are the very source from which I originally drew my conclusion that even most monsters that can see in darkness would rather have dim light to see in because it has always been more advantageous - because of the strictly limited range, and because whether infravision or darkvision what it is that can be seen is of less useful degree of detail than what can be seen in dim light, such as neither of those types of vision being able to tell a surface-dwelling dwarf from a duergar, nor either typically being able to see that drow patrol before they have shot you full of poisoned crossbow bolts.

Dungeons have light sources in general, and dungeons that don't are full of things that can see farther in darkness than the typical adventurer that can see in the dark, so bringing light and giving away your position by doing so is still your best chance at seeing the denizens of the dungeon before it is too late - an enemy that knows you are coming being less of a threat than an enemy you can't see coming.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Is the same true for rogues being within the range of non-darkvision monsters in dim light? I.e., is it possible for a rogue in your game to sneak up close to a castle guard and then sneak away again?

Seems to me that ruling that out suggests that the monster/guard does nothing but stare in the direction that the rogue will be coming from.

I guess I didn't write that very clearly in my post...sorry!

What it boils down to for me is this: no light = no 'place to hide' (e.g., shadows).

Maybe don't think of it as "dim light", think of it as "brightly lit with no shadows". Can someone sneak up on someone in the middle of a field with a noon-day sun in the sky and no clouds in the sky? Yes...as long as the person doesn't look in the direction of the sneaking thief. Same with Darkvision. If it was totally dark ("totally light"), the only thing keeping the thief from not being seen is if the guard doesn't look in his direction. If he does...the jig is up.

Now, if there are places to hide behind, like a big crate, lets say. Then yeah...but at that point the thief isn't making any Stealth check...he's just hiding behind a big crate. The lumbering barbarian with a 5 dex would be 'hiding' just as well as the thief...because, well, they are 100% CONCEALED (so don't need to make a 'hide' check).

So, in essence, a darkvisioned thief trying to "scout" ahead with no light sources around is gambling. He's hoping that if he rounds a corner, that there isn't anything there...or looking to where he is. If they are...he's spotted. Period. It might have well have been a brightly lit corridor with a non-darkvisioned thief walking around the corner. However...put a party of adventurers with a torch behind that thief...aaaahhhh.... Now the monsters see a torchlight coming from up around the bend, so they get ready to shoot their bows at the carriers! However, the thief is 'scouting' ahead of the party...he peaks around the corner and...can make a Stealth check to quickly pop his head back before being seen by the baddies with bows. He can then go tell his party that two hobgoblins with bows are around the corner. Why? Light.

At least, in my campaign. IMC, "light" trumps "darkvision". If something has darkvision, but there is light, that creatures 'normal vision' kicks in...meaning it effectively has no 'darkvision' (it's switched off, so to speak). Get rid of that light source and *click*...darkvision kicks in.

Make sense?

^_^

Paul L. Ming