D&D 5E The fighter's Indomitable ability

[FormerlyHemlock]

You know what else Fighters don't get? As many class abilities as every other noncaster.
Really, I'll never understand why people keep bringing up the number of ASI a fighter gets like it's some sort of saving grace. They're not free by any stretch of imagination, they replace actual class abilities, and depending on the class ability and the specific feat we're talking about, ASI/feats are not bound to come out ahead.
Also, spending a feat/ASI just to increase a single save by a single point is a terrible investment, and fighters only get 2 extra ASI anyway.

I think you missed the point GladiusLegis was making. It's not about fighters vs. other classes. It's about the fact that if the fighter wants to make Indomitable really strong, he can afford to do so by taking Resilient (Wis), and, I would add, Lucky. Now you have a fighter who's pretty average at damage dealing, but is extremely hard to charm.

Or you can optimize on damage instead of mental abilities. In that case, Indomitable is mostly just a way of making extra-sure you never get turned to stone by a Medusa or killed by White Dragon breath (both of which are Con saves), or lose your concentration at a bad time, or anything like unto that.

It's a choice.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think you missed the point GladiusLegis was making. It's not about fighters vs. other classes.

Well, except inasmuch as you can choose any class other instead of fighter.

It's about the fact that if the fighter wants to make Indomitable really strong, he can afford to do so by taking Resilient (Wis), and, I would add, Lucky.

If that's specifically with bonus ASI, that is, of course, assuming Feats (which are optional), and waiting until 6th & 14th(?) level, respectively. Leaving you, as Saelorn put it, pretty Domitable in the meantime.

Even then, it's the optional Feat you're taking at 6th, not the standard feature you get at 9th, that's doing the heavy lifting.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Well, except inasmuch as you can choose any class other instead of fighter. If that's specifically with bonus ASI, that is, of course, assuming Feats (which are optional), and waiting until 6th & 14th(?) level, respectively. Leaving you, as Saelorn put it, pretty Domitable in the meantime.

Even then, it's the optional Feat you're taking at 6th, not the standard feature you get at 9th, that's doing the heavy lifting.

I agree. If you don't take Resilient (Wis), then Indomitable is mostly about never failing Con saves and Str saves. Do you see that as a problem?

But GladiusLegis does have a valid point in that Resilient (Wis) is a common feat for fighters (IME), and Indomitable synergizes with it. I took it as an assertion that the Fighter can and should become mentally stronger than almost any class except a raging Berserker or maybe a Fiendlock w/ Dark One's Own Luck. If so, I don't necessarily agree (I find Wisdom save proficiency comparatively meh) but it's certainly a valid opinion. As is yours, Tony.

 

[Ahglock]

I agree. If you don't take Resilient (Wis), then Indomitable is mostly about never failing Con saves and Str saves. Do you see that as a problem?

But GladiusLegis does have a valid point in that Resilient (Wis) is a common feat for fighters (IME), and Indomitable synergizes with it. I took it as an assertion that the Fighter can and should become mentally stronger than almost any class except a raging Berserker or maybe a Fiendlock w/ Dark One's Own Luck. If so, I don't necessarily agree (I find Wisdom save proficiency comparatively meh) but it's certainly a valid opinion. As is yours, Tony.

I'm not sure I agree with the basic premise that it's not that useful for wisdom saves if you don't have resilient. Most wisdom saves the fighter faced in my campaign were in the 14-15 range. A 2nd shot at rolling 14 isn't that bad IMO. Now sure 2nd chance to roll at 9 or 10 is better but 2 25-30% chances isn't that bad. And it's not like it's save or die. It's about losing a round or not mostly.

 

[Ahglock]

I agree. If you don't take Resilient (Wis), then Indomitable is mostly about never failing Con saves and Str saves. Do you see that as a problem?

But GladiusLegis does have a valid point in that Resilient (Wis) is a common feat for fighters (IME), and Indomitable synergizes with it. I took it as an assertion that the Fighter can and should become mentally stronger than almost any class except a raging Berserker or maybe a Fiendlock w/ Dark One's Own Luck. If so, I don't necessarily agree (I find Wisdom save proficiency comparatively meh) but it's certainly a valid opinion. As is yours, Tony.

I'm not sure I agree with the basic premise that it's not that useful for wisdom saves if you don't have resilient. Most wisdom saves the fighter faced in my campaign were in the 14-15 range. A 2nd shot at rolling 14 isn't that bad IMO. Now sure 2nd chance to roll at 9 or 10 is better but 2 25-30% chances isn't that bad. And it's not like it's save or die. It's about losing a round or not mostly.

 

[Ashrym]

You know what else Fighters don't get? As many class abilities as every other noncaster.
Really, I'll never understand why people keep bringing up the number of ASI a fighter gets like it's some sort of saving grace. They're not free by any stretch of imagination, they replace actual class abilities, and depending on the class ability and the specific feat we're talking about, ASI/feats are not bound to come out ahead.
Also, spending a feat/ASI just to increase a single save by a single point is a terrible investment, and fighters only get 2 extra ASI anyway.

Fighter: Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge, Indomitable, 2*ASI Bonus, 3*Extra Attack, 5*Archetype Feature
high hit die, all weapon proficiencies, all armor proficiencies; no tool proficiencies

Barbarian: Rage, Unarmored Defense (only provides an alternative to armor proficiency and is redundant), Reckless Attack, Danger Sense, Extra Attack, Fast Movement, Feral Instinct, Brutal Critical, Relentless Rage, Persistent Rage (not an actual ability, just removing a penalty for losing rage), Indomitable Might, Primal Champion, 4*Primal Path Feature
highest hit die, all weapon proficiencies, medium armor and shield proficiencies; no tool proficiencies

Monk: Unarmored Defense, Martial Arts, Ki, Unarmored Movement, Deflect Missiles, Slow Fall, Extra Attack, Stunning Strike, Ki Empowered Strikes (not an actual ability, just removing a penalty against some opponents), Evasion, Stillness of Mind, Purity of Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Diamond Soul, Timeless Body, Empty Body, Perfect Self, 4*Monastic Tradition Feature
average hit die, simple weapons+, no armor proficiencies; proficiency in one artisan tools (or musical instrument)

Rogue: Bonus Skill Proficiencies, Expertise, Sneak Attack, Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, ASI Bonus, Reliable Talent, Blind Sense, Slippery Mind, Elusive, Stroke of Luck, 4*Roguish Archetype Feature
average hit die, simple weapons+, simple armor proficiency; proficiency in thieves' tools

That puts them at...

Fighter ~18 (2 given for the better armor options, 1 for all weapons, 1 for high hit die)
Barbarian ~19 (2 given for highest hit die, 1 for all weapons, 1 for armor, none for unarmored defense as redundant or persistent rage as simply losing rage less often)
Monk ~20 (none given for ki empowered strikes)
Rogue ~18 (1 given for light armor assuming DEX build)

It's debatable on the value of each ability and more after looking at how often each can be used, but there doesn't appear to be a big deficit for having selected a fighter when looking at other non-casters as you have stated. A person shouldn't just look at activated features in such a comparison.

Also, "only get 2 extra ASI anyway" is massively underselling the benefits of ASI's. When feats are allowed (normally IME) that's 40% more than most characters get and that's at 19th level assuming no lost last ASI to multiclassing, in which it's 50% more than those characters. Feats are pretty potent in 5e.

Actually increasing ability scores often isn't as effective as using the ASI for a feat, but in a featless game it's definitely worth it to invest a few build points in WIS and then some ASI's because after CON and attack ability score that's still going to give bonuses to important skills and WIS save, and there isn't going to be anything else on which to spend said ASI's outside of looking at such things.

I think you are over-stating the issue.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Also, spending a feat/ASI just to increase a single save by a single point is a terrible investment, and fighters only get 2 extra ASI anyway.

It depends. Not every game uses feats (mine doesn't); in that case, you'll max out your STR (or DEX for ranged/finesse fighters) and CON and not have much else to do with the extra ASIs other than boost your weaknesses.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Advantage on all saves is tantamount to Magic Resistance - which also seems a little lack-luster....

It's still pretty good as far as class features go, and certainly much better than what we got. "All" meaning "all" has some weird interactions. Advantage on Death Saves. Advantage on Concentration checks. Advantage against most traps. And even at high level, a lot of NPCs have DCs at or below DC 15 because there isn't a lot that's challenge 15+ in the game.

But, no, it doesn't fix the DC > 18 with a save bonus of +1 problem. It'd be better if it granted proficiency on an additional ability like Slippery Mind does.

 

[Njall]

Fighter: Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge, Indomitable, 2*ASI Bonus, 3*Extra Attack, 5*Archetype Feature
high hit die, all weapon proficiencies, all armor proficiencies; no tool proficiencies

Barbarian: Rage, Unarmored Defense (only provides an alternative to armor proficiency and is redundant), Reckless Attack, Danger Sense, Extra Attack, Fast Movement, Feral Instinct, Brutal Critical, Relentless Rage, Persistent Rage (not an actual ability, just removing a penalty for losing rage), Indomitable Might, Primal Champion, 4*Primal Path Feature
highest hit die, all weapon proficiencies, medium armor and shield proficiencies; no tool proficiencies

Monk: Unarmored Defense, Martial Arts, Ki, Unarmored Movement, Deflect Missiles, Slow Fall, Extra Attack, Stunning Strike, Ki Empowered Strikes (not an actual ability, just removing a penalty against some opponents), Evasion, Stillness of Mind, Purity of Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Diamond Soul, Timeless Body, Empty Body, Perfect Self, 4*Monastic Tradition Feature
average hit die, simple weapons+, no armor proficiencies; proficiency in one artisan tools (or musical instrument)

Rogue: Bonus Skill Proficiencies, Expertise, Sneak Attack, Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, ASI Bonus, Reliable Talent, Blind Sense, Slippery Mind, Elusive, Stroke of Luck, 4*Roguish Archetype Feature
average hit die, simple weapons+, simple armor proficiency; proficiency in thieves' tools

That puts them at...

Fighter ~18 (2 given for the better armor options, 1 for all weapons, 1 for high hit die)
Barbarian ~19 (2 given for highest hit die, 1 for all weapons, 1 for armor, none for unarmored defense as redundant or persistent rage as simply losing rage less often)
Monk ~20 (none given for ki empowered strikes)
Rogue ~18 (1 given for light armor assuming DEX build)

It's debatable on the value of each ability and more after looking at how often each can be used, but there doesn't appear to be a big deficit for having selected a fighter when looking at other non-casters as you have stated. A person shouldn't just look at activated features in such a comparison.

Also, "only get 2 extra ASI anyway" is massively underselling the benefits of ASI's. When feats are allowed (normally IME) that's 40% more than most characters get and that's at 19th level assuming no lost last ASI to multiclassing, in which it's 50% more than those characters. Feats are pretty potent in 5e.

Actually increasing ability scores often isn't as effective as using the ASI for a feat, but in a featless game it's definitely worth it to invest a few build points in WIS and then some ASI's because after CON and attack ability score that's still going to give bonuses to important skills and WIS save, and there isn't going to be anything else on which to spend said ASI's outside of looking at such things.

I think you are over-stating the issue.

...I'm overstating the issue that those "extra" ASI are budgeted and not free and fighters getting as many class abilities as as anyone else including their extra ASI means they actually get fewer unique class abilities?
How so? You just proved as much.
To clarify, I'm not saying that this is necessarily a balance issue, or that fighters lack unique class skills, and those ASI/Feats can be used to good effect; just that they're often brought up like they're something unique in the fighter's toolkit.
They're not, they're just more class abilities, and fighters get as many class abilities as anyone else, (or arguably slightly fewer, going by your count) including ASI.

 

[Quartz]

My guess is it was a conservative change when the original ability proved to be too powerful. Indomitable was significantly more powerful in the final public playtest. In those documents, Indomitable was "Advantage on all saving throws." That's it. No other limitations.

That seems rather powerful!