D&D 5E (2014) feeling dissatisfied - need some advice
- Thread starter pukunui
- Start date
hawkeyefan
Legend
@pukunui I don't think you have to start the campaign over. You can probably get things back to what you wanted, or at least close enough for you to enjoy things again.
For the first problem....others have suggested some simple solutions, and it does seem the lesser of the two problems, but I'll add another solution. Remove the patron. Have him killed or kidnapped or cursed or somehow else removed from the picture. Even the mission to rescue him or find a cure for the curse could be a source of several adventures.
For the divine magic....you mentioned Game of Thrones, so similar to how magic is on the rise in that world for some reason, perhaps something similar has happened on your world. Perhaps some planar event has led to a rise in divine magic, including your cleric and paladin PCs. I'd just start having people react strongly to them, some favorably ("you've saved us with your miraclulous powers") and others not so favorably ("I don't know what manner of sorcery you practice, but we want nothing to do with it").
The only two problems with this would be how prevalent arcane magic is in your world, and how divine magic has been presented so far.
If arcane magic is common, then folks would be more accepting of it, and less likely to not trust someone using a sort f magic that to laymen would be indistinguishable from arcane. So you'd really have to play up the differences or somehow explain why folks mistrusted divine magic but not arcane.
How divine magic has been presented so far is the other issue. It sounds like you had an idea and moved away from that, but now you wish you hadn't. I'd say you're kind of in luck because you also locked the PCs in geographically. So have them move from their home turf...and then show them that the rest of the world does not see divine magic the same way. Maybe they hate priests and other divine classes. Maybe they're unfamiliar with divine magic. Maybe some of them are faithless. You could go any route you want, or any combination that suits.
Ultimately, if you're not having fun, you need to do something about it, cbut you also don't want to ruin the players' fun. So find a way to take your concept of low divine magic and the presence of divine using PCs and make them work together. Play up how unique they are. Dial back the presence and strength of other divine aspects of the game. And then introduce elements that are more in line with your original idea.
For the first problem....others have suggested some simple solutions, and it does seem the lesser of the two problems, but I'll add another solution. Remove the patron. Have him killed or kidnapped or cursed or somehow else removed from the picture. Even the mission to rescue him or find a cure for the curse could be a source of several adventures.
For the divine magic....you mentioned Game of Thrones, so similar to how magic is on the rise in that world for some reason, perhaps something similar has happened on your world. Perhaps some planar event has led to a rise in divine magic, including your cleric and paladin PCs. I'd just start having people react strongly to them, some favorably ("you've saved us with your miraclulous powers") and others not so favorably ("I don't know what manner of sorcery you practice, but we want nothing to do with it").
The only two problems with this would be how prevalent arcane magic is in your world, and how divine magic has been presented so far.
If arcane magic is common, then folks would be more accepting of it, and less likely to not trust someone using a sort f magic that to laymen would be indistinguishable from arcane. So you'd really have to play up the differences or somehow explain why folks mistrusted divine magic but not arcane.
How divine magic has been presented so far is the other issue. It sounds like you had an idea and moved away from that, but now you wish you hadn't. I'd say you're kind of in luck because you also locked the PCs in geographically. So have them move from their home turf...and then show them that the rest of the world does not see divine magic the same way. Maybe they hate priests and other divine classes. Maybe they're unfamiliar with divine magic. Maybe some of them are faithless. You could go any route you want, or any combination that suits.
Ultimately, if you're not having fun, you need to do something about it, cbut you also don't want to ruin the players' fun. So find a way to take your concept of low divine magic and the presence of divine using PCs and make them work together. Play up how unique they are. Dial back the presence and strength of other divine aspects of the game. And then introduce elements that are more in line with your original idea.
Zardnaar
Legend
If you run a themed adventure you need to make houserules like no clerics allowed or PCs can only MC into clerics once they find a god/power source/mentor. 2E had some good books along these lines where they basically rewrote the cleric classes.
Basically say no a lot or have a list of restricted classes and races. Generally let the players know before hand though. I ran 3.5/PF once where the only allowed "primary" spellcaster allowed was the Bard bcause the Red Mantis Assassins had killed all the Cleircs/Druids/Wizards etc. Think Jedi purge from Star Wars.
Read the 5E DMG about restricting classes or even buy the 2E Spells and Magic PDF.
pukunui
Legend
While I think my first preference would still be to reboot, [MENTION=6803664]ccs[/MENTION] has provided me with the seed for a possible compromise. At the end of our last session, some of the PCs had randomly ended up on the plane of Acheron. I wasn't entirely sure how to proceed with the campaign, so one of my players suggested that his unbendable needle trinket was actually a magic item that could mend a stitch in time, as it were, so I came up with a narrative bit that had him rewind to right before the bad guy stuck one bag of holding into another, thus creating the rift that sent them into the Astral Plane, and then I had the PC kill the bad guy before he could do it again.
Maybe this stitching of time has resulted in the PCs ending up in a slightly alternate reality, where divine magic doesn't work (and perhaps never has). The guy playing the cleric has already told me he'd be happy to play a different character, so it would just be a matter of doing something with the paladin. I've asked the player whether he'd be willing to re-imagine the character as an eldritch knight instead.
Maybe this stitching of time has resulted in the PCs ending up in a slightly alternate reality, where divine magic doesn't work (and perhaps never has). The guy playing the cleric has already told me he'd be happy to play a different character, so it would just be a matter of doing something with the paladin. I've asked the player whether he'd be willing to re-imagine the character as an eldritch knight instead.
Enevhar Aldarion
Hero
Did I miss reading it or have you not mentioned what level these characters are currently at? How powerful they are makes a big difference on modifying versus starting over.
Cutting off the power source for divine magic can be iffy to do since it is not just the cleric in the party who has accessed it during the campaign. Is the party cleric and the npc clerics all followers of the same deity or of different ones? Or are they all the same pantheon who all reside together in a higher plane? If there is only one or they all are in the same location, simply narratively and mysteriously cut the link between your world and the land of the gods so that no more divine power comes through. Maybe the characters can even go on a long and dangerous quest to find out what happened and try to restore the connection.
The cleric can even keep his low level powers and spells if you adopt the old AD&D rule that clerics do not receive their 1st and 2nd level spells from the deity, but from their own faith.
As for the paladin, as others have said, no deity is needed for their abilities and spells, so do not let the "divine" tag on them throw you.
Cutting off the power source for divine magic can be iffy to do since it is not just the cleric in the party who has accessed it during the campaign. Is the party cleric and the npc clerics all followers of the same deity or of different ones? Or are they all the same pantheon who all reside together in a higher plane? If there is only one or they all are in the same location, simply narratively and mysteriously cut the link between your world and the land of the gods so that no more divine power comes through. Maybe the characters can even go on a long and dangerous quest to find out what happened and try to restore the connection.
The cleric can even keep his low level powers and spells if you adopt the old AD&D rule that clerics do not receive their 1st and 2nd level spells from the deity, but from their own faith.
As for the paladin, as others have said, no deity is needed for their abilities and spells, so do not let the "divine" tag on them throw you.
First, how did you introduce the conceits of your campaign world to the players? Did you leave it vague? Or did you outline the classes and races they could use, house rules, etc? I think articulating and imposing restrictions are a mandatory if you want to bring your world to life. So, if you haven't done that, I suggest you do so now. And then work with your players to rebuild characters that don't fit into the campaign world.
Second, I think you can simply tell your players away from the table that the campaign is transitioning into being "on the road" in order to keep it fresh and align with your original intent. You and your players seem pretty mellow so I assume this would be an easy conversation.
Third, this is a good learning experience for how to get out in front of problems and nip them in the bud.
Fourth, if you're not excited by the game, your players will not be excited, either. So you need to be able to recognize when you're getting bored and take preventative action. Maybe that means turning your campaign upside down and going in a totally unexpected direction. Or maybe that means acknowledging that you need to limit campaigns to 6 months or less. In which case, consider having one campaign start at level 1, another campaign start at level 5, a totally different campaign starting at level 10, and so on. In fact, you don't really need to run campaigns at all. You can just run adventures. In the classical sense. You know, an adventure that advances characters 1 or 2 levels...rather than 20.
Anyway, take this for whatever it's worth. Good luck.
Second, I think you can simply tell your players away from the table that the campaign is transitioning into being "on the road" in order to keep it fresh and align with your original intent. You and your players seem pretty mellow so I assume this would be an easy conversation.
Third, this is a good learning experience for how to get out in front of problems and nip them in the bud.
Fourth, if you're not excited by the game, your players will not be excited, either. So you need to be able to recognize when you're getting bored and take preventative action. Maybe that means turning your campaign upside down and going in a totally unexpected direction. Or maybe that means acknowledging that you need to limit campaigns to 6 months or less. In which case, consider having one campaign start at level 1, another campaign start at level 5, a totally different campaign starting at level 10, and so on. In fact, you don't really need to run campaigns at all. You can just run adventures. In the classical sense. You know, an adventure that advances characters 1 or 2 levels...rather than 20.
Anyway, take this for whatever it's worth. Good luck.
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pukunui
Legend
I haven't. They just recently hit 6th level.
They haven't really met any other clerics. I did allow them to find someone who could cast raise dead, but I never really fleshed that person out. They could just as easily have been a bard as a cleric. Or an angel in disguise. Or something.
There's still a bit of the divine in their spells, though. Bless, divine favor, shield of faith, revivify, etc. And while they may not need a deity, there's still the implication that they've got some kind of holy and/or divine power.
GM Lent
Elder Thing
Aside from all the "nuke the campaign" advice, you could also pull a kind of bait and switch. What if it turns out that the source of the "Divine" power is a Great Old One or Elder God? If those healed or raised by the cleric begin, day/weeks/months later, to develop tentacles or devolve into insanity, it can help discourage the use of the spells you seek to remove.
Yog-sothoth is your friend. The patron could turn out to be (knowingly or unknowingly) playing the characters right into the hands of this entity.
It seems to me that this approach would allow you to remove the aspects you dislike without having to completely destroy or rebooth the campaign.
Yog-sothoth is your friend. The patron could turn out to be (knowingly or unknowingly) playing the characters right into the hands of this entity.
It seems to me that this approach would allow you to remove the aspects you dislike without having to completely destroy or rebooth the campaign.
pukunui
Legend
Well, I have already established that being raised from the dead causes you to lose part of yourself (another nod to Game of Thrones), which usually manifests in the modification of a personality trait or the addition of a form of indefinite madness or some such thing.
Previously in the campaign, the PC cleric used revivify to bring back an NPC ally who'd been slain by an incubus' draining kiss. I'd previously established that she had a crush on one of the other PCs, so I modified that to be a full-blown obsession. She then went on to form a pact with Graz'zt and is now a fiend pact warlock.
Previously in the campaign, the PC cleric used revivify to bring back an NPC ally who'd been slain by an incubus' draining kiss. I'd previously established that she had a crush on one of the other PCs, so I modified that to be a full-blown obsession. She then went on to form a pact with Graz'zt and is now a fiend pact warlock.
Hi Pukunui
Sorry to hear you're not happy with your campaign. I'll also say, Steeldragons? Come on mate. The OP put himself out there and is being open and honest about his feelings with both us and his players. Yes you gave advice but it was with a pretty brutal delivery to someone who had not presented any frustration to anyone except towards himself. He hasn't blamed his players for this either. It seriously looked like you were kicking someone when they were down. Also, he doesn't have to 'not dm again'. What about suggesting a less extreme option, like taking a break from it? Now I understand he's from New Zealand.... I'm jealous too given my love of Lord of the Rings, but there's no need to take it out on him!
Pukunui, whatever your eventual attempted fix may be, just be aware that stripping a character of their powers could be a bad idea. Though I like Enevhar Aldarion's suggestion that maybe your current healers may suddenly find they can't progress further for story reasons. I think one thing you have to establish with your players is this though, it sounds as if they are enjoying playing the "town-building" game. If they are, it may not matter where they go, they may try to settle again. The reason they keep coming back to this town too is that they now have a special relationship with the leader there. They feel special. They feel safe...
Tell me though, what would be stopping Ragnorok from occurring in yor campaign in the present? Your party feels safe NOW, but what happens when they start finding dead civilians around town, strange bloody carvings found over their bodies. What happens when no-one can decipher the language it is written in (Sayyy Deep speech or maybe something unique and ancient?). What happens when more and more dead appear and a deliberatly set clue leads them to a neighbouring land?
What happens then, when the clues lead them to the biggest oldest library of all the known kingdoms, to its restricted section, to an old book, where a symbol appears matching the symbol they found on the corpses, where the prophecy of the end of the gods appears? A book which speaks of a cult which will bring about the subjugation of the divine, preventing them from influencing the mortal plane?
What happens when half-way back, the skies fill with black clouds and fire, the skies rain blood and the prayers to the gods go unanswered? What happens when upon arrival, their beloved Patron is at the centre of it all! That all along, the players had been helping her in her pursuits, that she sent the characters away whilst she finished the ritual to consolodate power! What happens when she turns into a red dragon rather than silver (I know they can't normally polymorph, but go with me here) and chases the party away, the party surviving perhaps by clambering away into a dungeon somewhere, emerging later to find the town destroyed?
What happens when suddenly the towns are not a comfortable place to be? Where the once living rise up in swarms and try to eat any living soul they can find? What happens when no-where is safe? Your party will then want to keep moving!
Sorry to hear you're not happy with your campaign. I'll also say, Steeldragons? Come on mate. The OP put himself out there and is being open and honest about his feelings with both us and his players. Yes you gave advice but it was with a pretty brutal delivery to someone who had not presented any frustration to anyone except towards himself. He hasn't blamed his players for this either. It seriously looked like you were kicking someone when they were down. Also, he doesn't have to 'not dm again'. What about suggesting a less extreme option, like taking a break from it? Now I understand he's from New Zealand.... I'm jealous too given my love of Lord of the Rings, but there's no need to take it out on him!
Pukunui, whatever your eventual attempted fix may be, just be aware that stripping a character of their powers could be a bad idea. Though I like Enevhar Aldarion's suggestion that maybe your current healers may suddenly find they can't progress further for story reasons. I think one thing you have to establish with your players is this though, it sounds as if they are enjoying playing the "town-building" game. If they are, it may not matter where they go, they may try to settle again. The reason they keep coming back to this town too is that they now have a special relationship with the leader there. They feel special. They feel safe...
Tell me though, what would be stopping Ragnorok from occurring in yor campaign in the present? Your party feels safe NOW, but what happens when they start finding dead civilians around town, strange bloody carvings found over their bodies. What happens when no-one can decipher the language it is written in (Sayyy Deep speech or maybe something unique and ancient?). What happens when more and more dead appear and a deliberatly set clue leads them to a neighbouring land?
What happens then, when the clues lead them to the biggest oldest library of all the known kingdoms, to its restricted section, to an old book, where a symbol appears matching the symbol they found on the corpses, where the prophecy of the end of the gods appears? A book which speaks of a cult which will bring about the subjugation of the divine, preventing them from influencing the mortal plane?
What happens when half-way back, the skies fill with black clouds and fire, the skies rain blood and the prayers to the gods go unanswered? What happens when upon arrival, their beloved Patron is at the centre of it all! That all along, the players had been helping her in her pursuits, that she sent the characters away whilst she finished the ritual to consolodate power! What happens when she turns into a red dragon rather than silver (I know they can't normally polymorph, but go with me here) and chases the party away, the party surviving perhaps by clambering away into a dungeon somewhere, emerging later to find the town destroyed?
What happens when suddenly the towns are not a comfortable place to be? Where the once living rise up in swarms and try to eat any living soul they can find? What happens when no-where is safe? Your party will then want to keep moving!
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