D&D 5E feeling dissatisfied - need some advice

[pukunui]

Now I understand he's from New Zealand.... I'm jealous too given my love of Lord of the Rings, but there's no need to take it out on him!

LOL. Technically I'm not *from* New Zealand, but it's been my adopted home for more than a decade now, so I suppose that has to count for something ...

Pukunui, whatever your eventual attempted fix may be, just be aware that stripping a character of their powers could be a bad idea.

Yes, I am aware of that. I have asked the paladin's player if he would be willing to consider rebuilding his character as an eldritch knight. If not, that's fine. I'll "suck it up" for now. (Although, on a slight tangent, I do think that the player in question would find it *easier* to play an eldritch knight over a paladin.)

I think one thing you have to establish with your players is this though, it sounds as if they are enjoying playing the "town-building" game. If they are, it may not matter where they go, they may try to settle again. The reason they keep coming back to this town too is that they now have a special relationship with the leader there. They feel special. They feel safe...

Initially, it was because I gave them the option of having a patron, which they accepted, and then it seemed to make sense that the patron would stay put in one place, so they agreed to just sort of settle in this one town and explore the local area. I think it would be easy enough to have that patron tell them it's time they moved on and explored more of the world. And then the episodic nature of my campaign would make it so they couldn't really settle anywhere else. It's hard to settle in one place when each new adventure starts off with you somewhere else!

And it's not that I want to make towns unsafe. I have some adventures that I'd like to run that take place in towns and cities as well as deserts and jungles. I mainly just want to be able to take whatever adventure I feel like running and not have to try and peg it down on a map, if that makes sense. I want to be able to run an adventure in one location and then the next adventure in a completely different adventure without having to worry about how they got from one place to the other. I think I can do that without rebooting. It was just that with the other issue, it felt like a reboot would be better.

But I think the alternate reality compromise I came up with might be OK. As I said, the cleric's player is fine with making a new PC. He already had an idea for a fighter that he'd like to try out. It's just the guy playing the paladin that I'm waiting on. It doesn't really matter so much with the others (a storm sorcerer, a lore bard, and an arcane trickster rogue).

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

A couple of things seem to spring out at me:

When you think about the gods in your setting, are you thinking "distant" like Eberron, where there is no proof or direct communication, but everyone still believes in them? Or that they plain don't exist?
Note that in Eberron there are still several non-god divine forces: The Blood of Vol channels the spark of power present in all living beings. The Silver Flame is a primordial force formed of sacrifice and guardianship that lends its power to those striving for the same goals. The Valenar elves worship and gain power from their ancestors, and the Aerenal elves call upon the gestalt entity of their undying rulers.

What are the beliefs of your Cleric and Paladin? Are they inextricably part of a god's worship? Which god? Does the Paladin even follow a god?

You seem to have a hangup about specific spells. In that you have decided they must be of divine nature and thus have no place in your setting. Are those specific spells an actual issue that couldn't be solved by just reflavouring or are you convinced that they are impossible to cast without actual gods in the setting?

Bear in mind that unlike previous editions, there is no divide between "arcane magic" and "divine magic". There is a single class whose default flavour is that they gain their powers through a god, but aside from a different spell list, there is no mechanical difference. In your setting, clerics could just be extra-dedicated Warlocks, or "White mages" that channel life force etc.

Regarding getting your party out of the town, a simple "I'm not getting the supplies I ordered from X. Could you go find out why please?" from their innkeeper friend or similar should be enough to sent them off to lands unknown. At level 6 they are transitioning from "heroes of the village" to "heroes of the nation" levels of threats. Send an NPC that they have already formed attachments to, or have them meet someone they will get to like to give them a reason to continue travelling.
Once they have solved all the problems in their little village, they should be looking further afield for opportunities anyway.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

TLR all of the thread but could you have a "God is dead" event?

One day the cleric/paladin don't have their prayers answered anymore (not to be completely dickish, they retain their last set of spells prepared, but without any smiting etc).

It's not just them. Maybe wizards find their spell books diminish. Sorcerers find their meta magic doesn't work.

Could be the start of a quest to find out what went wrong (evil sorcerer/necro/whatever) and try to restore the world to the way it was.

At the end, marks are left. The gods have died but fey patrons come forth instead. Meta magic returns as wild magic enjoys a renaissance. Meanwhile, an entire school of wizardry is torn from the world (illusion, say).

Things become more real, hyper real in some sense. And the fey/goo become more enticing as sources of power (hard to have fiends without gods), as is sorcery.

I dunno. Random squiggles.

 

[pukunui]

When you think about the gods in your setting, are you thinking "distant" like Eberron, where there is no proof or direct communication, but everyone still believes in them? Or that they plain don't exist?

A bit like Eberron. More like Game of Thrones or Dragon Age, as I mentioned above. Eberron still has clerics and such. Dragon Age doesn't, although there are "white mages" of a sort. As for Game of Thrones, it's hard to say. Thoros of Myr *might* be a cleric, but then he might also just be a normal guy with a weird supernatural gift that lets him resurrect people. Melisandre, on the other hand, strikes me as being more of a sorcerer or warlock than a cleric.

What are the beliefs of your Cleric and Paladin? Are they inextricably part of a god's worship? Which god? Does the Paladin even follow a god?

The cleric follows one of the "old gods" (think pagan vs Christian), while the paladin is a high elf. In my world, high elves are agnostic at best, so he does not worship a god. To be honest, I'm not sure why I let that one slide. I probably should have said that high elves aren't ever paladins or something.

See, I think the problem is that, despite my having a fairly good idea of what I wanted at the start, I ended up being a bit too wishy-washy about it, letting people introduce characters that weren't in line with some of my guidelines, and now I'm regretting it. Or perhaps it's just that I'm a fallible human and couldn't anticipate everything and am only just realizing that certain things that looked OK on paper are turning out to be less than desirable after a certain amount of time in play (like letting the cleric make use of the optional Piety mechanic).

You seem to have a hangup about specific spells.

Not as much as it might seem. I think it's just that I'd rather cut stuff out than have to go through and reflavor a whole bunch of things. I'd like to keep that sort of thing to a minimum, so as not to confuse my players. I think it would be easier on them if I just say "You can't play a cleric" than if I were to say "The cleric is actually a white mage" or "I've renamed bless to magical morale booster" or whatever. Does that make sense?

TLR all of the thread but could you have a "God is dead" event?

I could, but I'd rather keep these sorts of world-shaking events to a minimum.


By the way, the guy playing the paladin says he likes my proposed idea of having his PC swap over from a paladin to an eldritch knight, so I may just be able to pull off the alternate reality switch.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

A bit like Eberron. More like Game of Thrones or Dragon Age, as I mentioned above. Eberron still has clerics and such. Dragon Age doesn't, although there are "white mages" of a sort. As for Game of Thrones, it's hard to say. Thoros of Myr *might* be a cleric, but then he might also just be a normal guy with a weird supernatural gift that lets him resurrect people. Melisandre, on the other hand, strikes me as being more of a sorcerer or warlock than a cleric.

OK. I know Eberron, but not Dragon Age, and its a while since I read any of Game of Thrones.

The cleric follows one of the "old gods" (think pagan vs Christian),

So could be Fey or other primordial powers more like a Warlock Patron? Maybe in more "civilised" areas of the world, magics that mess with life force are proscribed, and so only forbidden powers offer that knowledge.
Maybe they are taboo for good reason.

while the paladin is a high elf. In my world, high elves are agnostic at best, so he does not worship a god. To be honest, I'm not sure why I let that one slide. I probably should have said that high elves aren't ever paladins or something.

Remember that Paladins have no actual connection to gods. (Unless you have houseruled that in, which given your setting seems unlikely.)
In terms of the origin of their powers, they could be regarded as closer to Bards than anything else: They have sworn an Oath of such vehemence and purity that it echoes through the firmament and the very forces of creation itself empower the Paladin to see its fulfilment.
Its actually a pretty good match for an agnostic or atheistic society. Particularly one with strong verbal or bardic traditions.

See, I think the problem is that, despite my having a fairly good idea of what I wanted at the start, I ended up being a bit too wishy-washy about it, letting people introduce characters that weren't in line with some of my guidelines, and now I'm regretting it. Or perhaps it's just that I'm a fallible human and couldn't anticipate everything and am only just realizing that certain things that looked OK on paper are turning out to be less than desirable after a certain amount of time in play (like letting the cleric make use of the optional Piety mechanic).

Piety fits the warlock-like nature of the cleric: you honour your patron: it rewards you with more of its favours.

Not as much as it might seem. I think it's just that I'd rather cut stuff out than have to go through and reflavor a whole bunch of things. I'd like to keep that sort of thing to a minimum, so as not to confuse my players. I think it would be easier on them if I just say "You can't play a cleric" than if I were to say "The cleric is actually a white mage" or "I've renamed bless to magical morale booster" or whatever. Does that make sense?

The White mage blesses you; you are aided by their power, or by your own, given new direction by their magics. Nothing about the spell requires or even implies godly intervention.

The reflavouring is why I asked about the actual beliefs of the cleric PC. Are they part of a church? What are their tenets? What are their actual beliefs? How receptive would the player be to adjusting them?

 

[pukunui]

OK. I know Eberron, but not Dragon Age, and its a while since I read any of Game of Thrones.

Dragon Age has people who believe in gods. Human civilization is dominated by a powerful deistic church. The elves who still roam the wilds (as opposed to the city elves living in ghettoes) still worship their ancient pantheon of gods who were supposedly tricked by one of their own and trapped in some unknown realm. Dwarves revere their ancestors and a Mother Earth-like entity they call the Stone (which isn't worshipped as a deity). The Qunari have more of a philosophical belief system than a religion. While there are priests, none of them can use magic. Mages can cast a few healing spells, though.

As for Game of Thrones, there are numerous religions, some more popular/dominant than others, but on the show at least (I haven't read any of the books either), the only priests that show any magical power are the Red Priests, the followers of the Lord of Light. One has raised a guy from the dead multiple times (but has no other magical abilities), while another has used a variety of fire, blood and shadow magic.

Remember that Paladins have no actual connection to gods.

I know, but I can't get the "holy warrior" image out of my head. Don't get me wrong: I've got nothing against the class in and of itself. I had a blast playing an ancients paladin all the way up to 20th level. It's just that I think I'd prefer my homebrew world not to have any paladins as well as clerics.

The reflavouring is why I asked about the actual beliefs of the cleric PC. Are they part of a church? What are their tenets? What are their actual beliefs? How receptive would the player be to adjusting them?

No, the character wasn't part of a church as such. The old gods are worshipped more like the standard loose pantheon of D&D gods - you call upon them as needed.

As I said, though, I'm hesitant to reflavor things because I'd be concerned that it would confuse my players. I'd rather leave stuff out than tinker with it.

 

[Azurewraith]

While I think my first preference would still be to reboot, [MENTION=6803664]ccs[/MENTION] has provided me with the seed for a possible compromise. At the end of our last session, some of the PCs had randomly ended up on the plane of Acheron. I wasn't entirely sure how to proceed with the campaign, so one of my players suggested that his unbendable needle trinket was actually a magic item that could mend a stitch in time, as it were, so I came up with a narrative bit that had him rewind to right before the bad guy stuck one bag of holding into another, thus creating the rift that sent them into the Astral Plane, and then I had the PC kill the bad guy before he could do it again.

Maybe this stitching of time has resulted in the PCs ending up in a slightly alternate reality, where divine magic doesn't work (and perhaps never has). The guy playing the cleric has already told me he'd be happy to play a different character, so it would just be a matter of doing something with the paladin. I've asked the player whether he'd be willing to re-imagine the character as an eldritch knight instead.

If that's where your going and the cleric is cool leave the paladin as is just remove the word divine from sense and smite simples! Yes he can revive but so can druids n bards.

In future banning classes is a discussion you should have before session 0. I would be pretty pissed if mid way through a game someone just said NOPE its gone deal.

 

[pukunui]

If that's where your going and the cleric is cool leave the paladin as is just remove the word divine from sense and smite simples! Yes he can revive but so can druids n bards.

The paladin's player is cool to change to eldritch knight instead.

In future banning classes is a discussion you should have before session 0. I would be pretty pissed if mid way through a game someone just said NOPE its gone deal.

Yes, I know. But I've found that I can't anticipate every little nuance ahead of time. That's why I was thinking a reboot would be better. That way I'd have been able to make the changes without being in the middle of a campaign.

Fortunately, I have found a way to make it all work. The PCs are going to end up in an alternate reality where clerics and paladins don't exist. The paladin will be an eldritch knight, and as far as he is concerned, he'll always have been one. As for the cleric, he'll no longer exist, and in his place will be a fighter who has seemingly always been with the party. And the other three characters will not be affected in any way, except that they will also be unaware of any changes having occurred.

 

[Azurewraith]

The paladin's player is cool to change to eldritch knight instead.

Yes, I know. But I've found that I can't anticipate every little nuance ahead of time. That's why I was thinking a reboot would be better. That way I'd have been able to make the changes without being in the middle of a campaign.

Fortunately, I have found a way to make it all work. The PCs are going to end up in an alternate reality where clerics and paladins don't exist. The paladin will be an eldritch knight, and as far as he is concerned, he'll always have been one. As for the cleric, he'll no longer exist, and in his place will be a fighter who has seemingly always been with the party. And the other three characters will not be affected in any way, except that they will also be unaware of any changes having occurred.

Cool glad you got everything worked out. I didn't mean to come off aggressive ill apologize if I did. I find when I'm starring a new game with a specific setting style I have a quick qa with my players via Skype txt face to face so we can all iron out the kinks.

 

[pukunui]

Cool glad you got everything worked out. I didn't mean to come off aggressive ill apologize if I did. I find when I'm starring a new game with a specific setting style I have a quick qa with my players via Skype txt face to face so we can all iron out the kinks.

No worries. I do that too. It's just, as I said, I can't think of everything. Plus, sometimes things look OK on paper but then turn out rather differently in play. I think it's worth occasionally revisiting things to see how they're working out. And just to be clear, I've learned the hard way not to spring changes on players unannounced. I always ask them for their opinions first these days.