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D&D 5E Magic Items, and what it says about the editions

Salamandyr

Adventurer
Are they, though? I don't think them being on the table means players should be able to take it for granted that they're for sale. One doesn't expect to find alchemist's fire or holy water or spyglasses at just any shop, either.

That is why the line "by default. It seems to me that one of the default assumptions of the game is that anything in the PHB is available for purchase in downtime given access to a reasonably large town.

Individual games may vary ( I don't allow rapiers), but the bog standard game has all you can buy healing potions.
 

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Corwin

Explorer
The thing I hated most about magic items in TSR days was how the novels always broke the rules. I remember a Forgotten Realms novel where some Verbeeg wore his Ring of Regeneration on his toe to avoid detection, and how I wanted to scream at the author, "It explicitly doesn't work that way, for a good reason!"
IMO, wouldn't be all that big a deal to let such a thing go in 5e now, though. What with attunement being a much more limiting factor than the myriad body slots of old. You only get up to three attuneable items after all. If you want to wear one of them on your toe, go for it.
 

l0lzero

First Post
While I think 4e had far too many magic items (and a whole bunch of them terrible with others being very powerful), I think I prefer 3.0's magic item (3.5 with it's keen, brillaint energy mercurial greatswords with improved critical feat, dual-wielded through monkey grip) system in the sense that it was versatile, but it did definitely allow for the creation of some very broken magic items (especially the crafting rules in the dmg), but 3.0 also had a lot of abilities built into the classes as well, and still had a lot of magic items to boot, and mundane items that came with enhancement bonus (adamantine weapons and armor for instance) inherently that worked even in anti-magic areas, so it was also a pretty flawed system. I want a happy medium between 3.0 style customizable magic items and 5e's no magic items necessary design. I've said it before (before the crash) that I think a 3rd style system where certain effects carry an equivalent enhancement bonus value, and items can only have so much bonus on them. Honestly, I miss the huge variety of wondrous items and rings and all that jazz that the 5e dmg just didn't include. I'd like the introduction of more non-combat items, stuff to augment exploration and role-play, with the introduction of a customizing system for weapons and armor (so for instance, you could get a +1 flaming greatsword of speed, or a +2 Glaive of Warning, or a +3 bow, or a suit of +2 Mithral Plate Mail, or a +1 Mithral Mariner's Plate Mail, or +3 Studded Leather, and then like a mask that grants expertise in performance, or gloves that give an effect similar to mage hand legerdemain, or chalk that lets you draw a door to Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion on any vertical surface, or an amulet that lets you mimic voices. Just more flavor options that have rarities listed that are actually in-line with other magic items (since it's not exactly transparent how such non-combat items would be graded).

I didn't really find in the early days of 3rd (didn't own any of the books, so I just worked with what was given) that I felt my character needed magic items to accomplish tasks that were appropriate to party level, I did find that they let you pull off things well beyond level though (especially items that granted bonuses to skills). In 3.5 though I find magic items to be less important since you could MC to get similar effects that actually scaled as your character improved (I don't think pun-pun required any magic items to pull off, the infini-bard did though). In 5e, when I'm making builds, I don't even consider magic items until after the build it done and I'm looking at ways to cover the shortcomings (usually revolves around amulets of health and cloaks/rings of protection), which is nice. I just wish there was a better selection of item options because the current selection favors trope-y play (the longsword tank, the longbow archer, gauntlets and belts of strength, and ioun stones floating around everyone's heads) and it's just kind of boring when rolling up treasure to be like, "Ok, well, you've found a +2 longsword, that's better than what you have right? Oh, it's not? Well, more GP I suppose..."

With 4th edition, I mean, come on, it's part of creating a character above 1st level that you start with 3 free magic items, plus gold to buy more. I'd say that's a pretty strong indication of the level of magic that 4th edition ran with. Seems to me like a no/low magic campaign wasn't even really a consideration in that edition, what with the heavily math-dependent monster design.

5th has, I think, the right balance regarding magic item power level, I just wish there was a wider selection that was appropriately graded so there was a better idea of when it would be appropriate to introduce a ring of the acrobat (hypothetical item grants expertise to acrobatics checks, has some combat implications, but I don't think they'd be particularly potent) or an amulet of alertness (expertise perception). Like, are they rare, very rare, uncommon?

I just feel the magic item creation guidelines are not particularly clear or useful when it comes to saying "this type of feature is worth this" whereas in 3rd edition it was formulaic, yes, but that was a solid and reliable way to measure the potency of various effects (before restriction discounts) so you'd know "Hey, this item I made for your characters specs out to a 2400 gold magic item, it'd be reasonable for me to distribute that in loot around level 6+ so I'll give it as treasure in this encounter."

Also, not a fan of the rarity price-range system, I'd like an actual gold value to better refine what end of rare particular items were, especially since you can easily adjust prices dependent on setting (high-magic worlds keep stock price, low magic worlds double the price, no magic worlds have no magic and so are unavailable). I do, however, like the buying and selling magic items section (I suppose the rarity range could be representative of the possible range of price based on results from buying/selling rolls, but what's the actual base starting point, the middle of the range, the low end, the high end, what?).

5e's homebrew friendly, DM-ruling-centric design, I think, hurts it in regards to keeping your custom content balanced to the rest of the game's design. With rules as is, how does one determine if an item is going to be too powerful compared to other level appropriate items (assuming you follow the character wealth above 1st table at least roughly) without putting it into play?

When I played 2nd edition, people had all sorts of magic items all the time, staves, wands, rings, potions, swords, bows, ammo, ropes, etc., and that's one of the most common editions people point to as their favorite, and the few novels I've read, practically all the important characters were completely decked out in magic items and were chasing down world-sundering items as a viable career choice (like there were enough of such items that one could become a professional and have enough work to last you your entire life and still have items left unfound), which makes me think of 3rd and 4th edition characters that oozed magic.

Also, real fast, in a world with actual magic item shops, without a bajillion golems running about and all magic item merchants being high level wizards and clerics, what's to stop thieves from just robbing all the items? Sneak into the shop, snag a few bags of holding, and just start dumping items into the bags. Why wouldn't a mundane merchant run a magic item shop? If they hire guards to guard the place, you still have to have a place that's actually defensible, are all magic item shops old wizard towers or small keeps? I don't like the idea of shops where you just go in and say, "Yeah, Jim, I'm looking for a Scimitar of Speed, can you help me out?" and they come back with "Oh yeah Bob, just got in an order of those, that'll be just a stack of gold larger than you can carry!" I like the idea of having to find a merchant who might be in contact with someone who knows a guy who possibly has something you're looking for and who maybe, just maybe, would be willing to part with it for 120% of market value. You can still buy items if you're looking for something specific, you just need to jump through some hoops in your downtime, otherwise you can do like everyone else and kill dragons and hope it has something you're looking for in its hoard. Obviously I exclude potions from this (the rarer the potion, the more remote the crazy hermit who "sells" them, and by sell I mean will let you purchase them after sending your group on a quest to find exotic ingredients for some other potion) since alchemy is a pretty common thing from what I gather (in most worlds at least).

Yes, I know, not everyone likes the idea of a system similar to 3rds regarding custom magic items, I understand that 3rd borked it up with the +10 enhancement limit and the huge variety of powers that drastically changed the behavior or weapons in combat (brilliant energy bypassing armor and natural armor really changed a lot of fights just as one example), but in 5th I think it could very easily be toned down and the range of effects rather limited (your basic elementals, speed, bane, animated, keen, throwing, returning, special materials (which didn't count towards enhancement bonus and which also carried enhancement bonus inherently like adamantine, which could get you good effects cheaper since you could get a +2 adamantine greatsword then enchant it with stuff but only pay for a +1, then use the +2 inherent from the material for att/dam), etc.) which would help to keep players from acquiring abilities that combined to throw off combat balance (improved crit with keen on an increased threat range weapon made for some stupid crit chance and that's not even all the way to expand crit range, nevermind things like vorpal or brilliant energy), but still let them have options aside from the decades old trope weapons that everyone always goes for. I swear there's a section that does talk about an items bonus shouldn't exceed +X, but that's not particularly helpful outside of creating legendary and artifact tier items, which doesn't help for the vast majority of play. I mean, regardless of how pro-powerful characters I am, I still think it's absurd to have a level 8 character running around with an artifact item (unless it's a story item that they can't use because it requires attunement by a good aligned red dragon divine spellcaster), which is why I feel the DMG section on making magic items is, for all intents and purposes, useless.
 

In 5E, you really can't use monsters with weapon immunities as a "you must be this tall to ride" sign...
You can always add those abilities back in on the occasional monster. It's easier to add than to subtract, after all. And there's already stuff like lycanthropes (full immunity to normal weapons) and rakshasas (full immunity to low-level spells), so the concept is still out there. It's just not as ubiquitous as it used to be.

And no, I don't think "you must be this tall to ride" is good design, anyway. But if you do, 5E is not stopping you from doing it.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Are they, though? I don't think them being on the table means players should be able to take it for granted that they're for sale. One doesn't expect to find alchemist's fire or holy water or spyglasses at just any shop, either.
To me, anything in the PHB that isn't specifically called out as "optional" is assumed available unless the DM says otherwise. For equipment, in any substantial town, I assume I can buy anything off the list without having to roleplay the exchange or justify myself. Healing potions, holy water, and alchemist's fire are included in that. They may not be available in the town general store, but an experienced adventure can obtain them without trouble. (For high-ticket items like spyglasses or full plate, I might expect to have to go to a city.)

As ever, the DM has the right to modify the equipment list. If the DM says no healing potions, I have no problem with that. But if I joined a new D&D group and was asked to come to the first session with a character prepped, I would assume it was okay to include healing potions (and holy water, and alchemist's fire, and spyglasses, and full plate) in that character's equipment unless told otherwise.
 

[MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION]
In those days, rules were meant to be broken, bypass and to some extent ignore. Monsters were the balancing factor and you could get away with pretty much anything. We are back to this mindset with 5ed but this time we do have some guide lines to do it while avoiding the maunty haul campaing type.

As for adapting the old modules from B-X and Adv D&D (C-i-S or even the DL and FR types) it's quite easy. Total every magic items you can find. Divide by 3. That should give you about 3 or 4 permanent magic items as most adventures had about 10 to 13 of them. Remove them from the pool. And multiply the rest by two and transform them into one shot items like potions, arrows(or bolts), scrolls, elemental gems (even spell gems might be good). This way players still finds "stuff" and yet don't feel like they have nothing for the trade.

If a magic item is in the hands of a potential ally. Don't count it. If it is in the hands of an ennemy, then leave it if it can move the story arc forward. (So that why this hobgoblin's the leader. His sword or whatever was magical...).

I'm currently DM the old Lost City adventure and I have done the gulde lines above and it works out quite fine. After that adventure the PC's will be moved to Desert of Desolation and I'm currently giving it the same treatment. So far the players are quite happy. (and so am I :) )

As for the rogue being the poor child of 1st ed. I do not agree. They were quite dangerous and could become a real menace as the back stab were multipliers. Short sword +3, Potion of haste, belt of hill giant strength, enlarge and a cloack of displacement were litteral killers. And monsters were not often in the hundreds of hp range (unless the were gods...) A simple roll of 3 could become 13 x 5 x 2 (or only x6 if you were not crazy on the multiply rule as I was) 130hp dmg (78 if you were not multiplying both modifiers). The double backstab with two daggers was possible putting the rogue on par with a long sword. And imagine that in the first round, the rogue on haste was able to do that twice! I much prefer what we have now ;)
 

You can always add those abilities back in on the occasional monster. It's easier to add than to subtract, after all. And there's already stuff like lycanthropes (full immunity to normal weapons) and rakshasas (full immunity to low-level spells), so the concept is still out there. It's just not as ubiquitous as it used to be.

And no, I don't think "you must be this tall to ride" is good design, anyway. But if you do, 5E is not stopping you from doing it.

Yes, you can give a bunch of monsters full weapon immunity that requires +2 weapons to hit AND spell immunity to spells below 5th level--but you shouldn't, IMO. It's too far outside the 5E idiom and breaks too many design assumptions. At that point you should just admit to yourself that you'd rather be playing a different game.
 

Yes, you can give a bunch of monsters full weapon immunity that requires +2 weapons to hit AND spell immunity to spells below 5th level--but you shouldn't, IMO. It's too far outside the 5E idiom and breaks too many design assumptions. At that point you should just admit to yourself that you'd rather be playing a different game.

That is right to the point. Yet, full weapon immunity isn't that bad. Just forget the +2 requirement for a simple magic weapon to dmg.
The immune to 5th level spell or lower however... Should we count cantrip? They have no level assigned to them (but they still conform to 1st level spell for some peculiar rules (see sorcerer) ).

At least the wizards, sorcerers and warlocks of this ed can fight a bit more effectively with weapons now. ;)
 

Xeviat

Hero
Considering 3E had wealth as power for NPC CR, I very much think 3E assumed a certain wealth with level. 4E was just more clear and open about it.

Sometimes I feel like the only one who appreciated magic items in 3E and 4E. Yeah, part of me didn't like Christmas tree PCs, but I did appreciate that I knew what the game assumed for balancing things. In 5E, I constantly have to adjust my assumptions. My players want magic items. Im very close to modifying 3Es magic item system and going high magic in 5E.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

[MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION]
In those days, rules were meant to be broken, bypass and to some extent ignore. Monsters were the balancing factor and you could get away with pretty much anything. We are back to this mindset with 5ed but this time we do have some guide lines to do it while avoiding the maunty haul campaing type.

As for adapting the old modules from B-X and Adv D&D (C-i-S or even the DL and FR types) it's quite easy. Total every magic items you can find. Divide by 3. That should give you about 3 or 4 permanent magic items as most adventures had about 10 to 13 of them. Remove them from the pool. And multiply the rest by two and transform them into one shot items like potions, arrows(or bolts), scrolls, elemental gems (even spell gems might be good). This way players still finds "stuff" and yet don't feel like they have nothing for the trade.

But, good adventure design also says "don't assume that the PCs will find all the treasure." They're allowed to miss treasure through their own mistakes or inaction, or just because they took a different path. If the adventure has 3x as much treasure as you actually expect them to find, that actually means it has just the right amount of treasure to support free play.
 

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