D&D 5E (2014) Unarmored Defense and Surprise

[Faenor]

Ok, so the analogy breaks down when considering modern weapons and larger scale engagements than what d&d is designed to adjudicate.

 

[jasper]

I'm sorry, but are you disagreeing with what I said? Was there any particular point I made that you disagreed with? My main point was surprise as paralysis, and in particular, when experienced and trained fighting people are moving through a hostile environment where they are going to be fully puckered. I agree they may not act immediately, but is an army ranger or a marine going to go full deer in the headlights paralyzed?

For game purposes YES. Ranger Rick AC 15 (kelvar + dex) is surprise that the evil commie Mother in Law is unloading her +3 crossbow with arrows of husbands slaying at him. ECMiL has advantage on her to hit. He however does not have the paralyzed condition. So next round Ranger Rick can do DASH action and move through the ambush.
For die rolls Ranger Rick passive perception 15 was exceeded by ECMiL Stealth roll of nat 20.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Caliban]

The Barbarian and the Monk both have Unarmored Defense. The inclusion of DEX in the formula to calculate Unarmored Defense strongly implies to me that the word "defense" is meant in the active sense, as in "I am taking steps to evade an attack that I am aware of."

Were a character with Unarmored Defense to be the subject of a surprise attack, would their AC still benefit from the class feature?

I have a player that says "Yes," while my own instinct is to say, "No." It brings to mind the idea of being flat-footed, from previous editions of the game.

Unarmored Defense is not the same as Natural Armor. Its very name implies to me that the beneficiary of the class feature is defending him- or herself.

Just out of curiosity, why did you even post this? It's pretty clear that you made up your mind how it was going to work in your game beforehand.

Posting a question when you already have an answer you like and you are going to stick to that answer come hell or high water just seems like a waste of time. Unless you were just looking for an argument so you can insult people who disagree with you or something.

 

[Faenor]

For game purposes YES. Ranger Rick AC 15 (kelvar + dex) is surprise that the evil commie Mother in Law is unloading her +3 crossbow with arrows of husbands slaying at him. ECMiL has advantage on her to hit. He however does not have the paralyzed condition. So next round Ranger Rick can do DASH action and move through the ambush.
For die rolls Ranger Rick passive perception 15 was exceeded by ECMiL Stealth roll of nat 20.

Ok, thank you. In game terms, it's a class feature that gives that advantage on a pc that hasn't acted yet or is surprised. Do you believe that all attacks against a surprised pc should have advantage?

 

[Yunru]

Ok, thank you. In game terms, it's a class feature that gives that advantage on a pc that hasn't acted yet or is surprised. Do you believe that all attacks against a surprised pc should have advantage?

Not for the pcs being surprised, but for the conditions that lead to the pcs to being surprised (namely: hidden and/or unseen). Unless of course those don't apply. If a NPC the party was talking to takes a turn for the made and pulls out a broad sword and starts swinging, he'll have surprise, but not advantage.

 

[Faenor]

Ok, thank you. That's the sucker punch scenario that these discussions always come to. And it's the debate about what 'threat' means, as in '...become aware of a threat.' When initiative is rolled. So the thing about that is turn based play is the method for resolving combat. Stepping back, the everything in the game could be resolved turn based, it's only not because it's too cumbersome. So if you start that peaceful npc interaction, each pc or npc is choosing what to do with their turn to not attack. If it's a tense interaction, they all could be taking dodged or ready actions. To take the ready action, they'd need to have their weapon out because ready gives a reaction, and you don't get interaction with an object to draw on the reaction. So it becomes persuasion checks to convince the npc not to be taking the dodge action on his turn. From the pc perspective, in combat you do have to announce your action before you roll initiatives, but then on subsequent rounds you don't, but only because it becomes cumbersome. One way to set it up so that the PCs are more vulnerable to the sucker punch, so that they are lulled and don't announce that they'll take the dodge or ready action, could be to continue to require announce until an attack is made by anyone. Another way would be to impose disadvantage on persuasion checks for ready or dodge action, as it takes a combative pose.

Also, the analogy to modern combat and weapons can't be used in d&d without breaking the way d&d simulates combat. In d&d, hit points are not health points. Damage doesn't reduce combat capabilities. A sword hit can't be an actual flesh penetration, or it all breaks down. In modern combat, almost any 'damage' is going to result in essentialy unconscious condition. Finally, the 6 second round only simulates medieval combat. Modern combat, on an individual basis- not the platoon or battalion scale- is a matter of fractions of a second to be won or lost.

 

[jasper]

Ok, thank you. In game terms, it's a class feature that gives that advantage on a pc that hasn't acted yet or is surprised. Do you believe that all attacks against a surprised pc should have advantage?

No. But Evil Commie Mother in Laws always have Advantage, it's the monsters special feature.

 

[jasper]

..In modern combat, almost any 'damage' is going to result in essentialy unconscious condition....
Nah. Ranger Rick AC 15 (kelvar + dex) is surprise and ECMil rolls a 16 and does 12 pts damage with her AK. Also on her second attack ECMiL rolls a 12 on Army Cook Jasper (also surprised) AC 11 (bdu no dex) doing 12 pts of damage putting Jasper to 0 and he is doing death saves when his init comes up.

 

[Faenor]

You may be watching too many movies. How does a gun do damage that doesn't reduce combat effectiveness immediately?