D&D 5E I think the era of 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons had it right. (not talking about the rules).

[JeffB]

If you believe that, why are you replying to my message which was in reply to someone else? I think you will find the answer you give is roughly the same response I'd make to you.

For some.of us, it is a conversation worth having. You seem to want to stifle it. That is the difference here. If you don't want to read complaints or differing opinions, don't click.

 

[Mistwell]

For some.of us, it is a conversation worth having. You seem to want to stifle it. That is the difference here. If you don't want to read complaints or differing opinions, don't click.

I disagree, I want to have the conversation. I've been having the conversation with him for over a year now (and the irony of you telling me I am interfering with someone else's conversation while you are the one doing that isn't lost on me). I think it's a conversation worth having, I just would like him to actually respond to the points others make rather than dismissing them, as others (including myself) are in fact responding to the points he makes. I didn't say I don't want to read complaints or differing opinions - I make complaints too and have differing opinions all the time. I just want it to be a real conversation rather than him coming in, declaring his opinion, and then telling everyone who disagrees that they're just illogical for not viewing things exactly like he views them.

I think you were confusing my response to his analogy with larger issues. I was demonstrating why his analogy was a bad one. I find most analogies to be unhelpful, and this one in particular was I think a poor choice. Because the obvious answer to his analogy was that he'd go to another restaurant, not demand the restaurant make things off-menu just for him.

 

[JeffB]

I disagree, I want to have the conversation. I've been having the conversation with him for over a year now (and the irony of you telling me I am interfering with someone else's conversation while you are the one doing that isn't lost on me). I think it's a conversation worth having, I just would like him to actually respond to the points others make rather than dismissing them, as others (including myself) are in fact responding to the points he makes. I didn't say I don't want to read complaints or differing opinions - I make complaints too and have differing opinions all the time. I just want it to be a real conversation rather than him coming in, declaring his opinion, and then telling everyone who disagrees that they're just illogical for not viewing things exactly like he views them.

I think you were confusing my response to his analogy with larger issues. I was demonstrating why his analogy was a bad one. I find most analogies to be unhelpful, and this one in particular was I think a poor choice. Because the obvious answer to his analogy was that he'd go to another restaurant, not demand the restaurant make things off-menu just for him.

Understood, and fair points!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I wasn't talking about the 4e Warlock at all. Rather, the post I was replying to ended by indicating that "needing higher system mastery to make the thing should mean that doing so is rewarded, not punished." It followed on directly from that statement.

Well, I was, obviously. If you are going to go on tangents, maybe indicate that?

Either way, the warlock is an example that shows how your statement isn't correct. 4e or 5e, the increased complexity is rewarded without making the class more powerful, so your statement is observably false.

 

[Zardnaar]

WOTC does have their own webshop. But more importantly...

Every single objective indicator we have, indicates that 5e is well outselling Pathfinder right now.
The Amazon Bestseller List.
The Barnes and Noble Bestseller List
The New York Times Bestseller List
The ICv2 Report of Retail Sales
The Hot Games List of what RPGs are being discussed on the Internet Right Now
The Hasbro Quarterly Report which (under FTC regulation for accuracy) listed D&D as materially profitable to the company (it's first mention that way ever).
Mearls and Crawford confirming the PHB has outsold the PHB from any other edition on record, with Eric Mona confirming the Pathfinder core book sold less than one of those prior books.
Mass media coverage of D&D by non-D&D sources compared to mass media coverage of Pathfinder.
Eric Mona admitting the entire RPG market was lifted by D&D 5e coming out and describing Pathfinder in terms of a "post-5th Edition paradigm".

There are more but by now I hope I made my point. And most of these indicators were perfectly acceptable to Pathfinder fans when Pathfinder was the game that they were indicating at the time was doing better than D&D, so it would be pretty hypocritical to claim suddenly they're not good indicators now that they are indicating something different.

Mearls did not claim 5E outsold TSR editions.

 

[delericho]

Either way, the warlock is an example that shows how your statement isn't correct. 4e or 5e, the increased complexity is rewarded without making the class more powerful, so your statement is observably false.

No, it isn't. Because I didn't claim that more complex classes are invariably more powerful; I was arguing that they shouldn't be.

 

[Corpsetaker]

WOTC does have their own webshop. But more importantly...

Every single objective indicator we have, indicates that 5e is well outselling Pathfinder right now.
The Amazon Bestseller List.
The Barnes and Noble Bestseller List
The New York Times Bestseller List
The ICv2 Report of Retail Sales
The Hot Games List of what RPGs are being discussed on the Internet Right Now
The Hasbro Quarterly Report which (under FTC regulation for accuracy) listed D&D as materially profitable to the company (it's first mention that way ever).
Mearls and Crawford confirming the PHB has outsold the PHB from any other edition on record, with Eric Mona confirming the Pathfinder core book sold less than one of those prior books.
Mass media coverage of D&D by non-D&D sources compared to mass media coverage of Pathfinder.
Eric Mona admitting the entire RPG market was lifted by D&D 5e coming out and describing Pathfinder in terms of a "post-5th Edition paradigm".

There are more but by now I hope I made my point. And most of these indicators were perfectly acceptable to Pathfinder fans when Pathfinder was the game that they were indicating at the time was doing better than D&D, so it would be pretty hypocritical to claim suddenly they're not good indicators now that they are indicating something different.

So you've gone and posted a big wall of half truth and twisted it in order to justify your argument.

Gotcha!

 

[Parmandur]

So you've gone and posted a big wall of half truth and twisted it in order to justify your argument.

Gotcha!

He cited evidence; do you have any, or does ot not really exist because it is just in your head...?

 

[Istbor]

So you've gone and posted a big wall of half truth and twisted it in order to justify your argument.

Gotcha!

Yes. Please show us how these are half-truths and have been twisted to justify his argument.

I am willing to give either of you a listen, but Mistwell has been the one bringing sources to the argument. Bring something useful to the table to refute this.

 

[Mistwell]

Mearls did not claim 5E outsold TSR editions.

"...has outsold the PHB from any other edition on record"

He said they had some 2e records but no 1e records I believe, but the statement is accurate. For those records they have, it's outsold each edition's PHB.