D&D 5E Totally underwhelmed by 5e bladesinger, am I missing something?

[neogod22]

The ruling seems pretty clear to me. The only potential problem is the way 5e deals with attacking invisible targets (which is effectively what the person would be with your eyes closed). The default rules have the player "guess" where they are attacking, and the GM has them roll (even if the target isn't there). That particular rule is one that is mechanically useless, and requires the usage of a combat grid, or some on-the-fly ruling.

If the GM is OK with the player being able to "guess" the right location of the real enemy with his eyes closed (sort of how actual blindfighting tends to work -- you aren't swinging wildly to your right when the guy is moving around to your left), then closing his eyes means he just gets the disadvantage to hit and otherwise ignores the images.

But if your GM does something like setup 4 extra identical pieces on the board, so that the player has to choose which square to attack in, then closing his eyes would make things worse by not only getting disadvantage, but also because he's still having to randomly figure out which square the mage is in.

Anyway, it's the kind of thing should probably be cleared up beforehand.

It wouldn't matter which image he chooses, the mage rolls the d20 to see if you hit the mage or the image. If you see the images at anytime, then you never know which is the true image. Think of it like Naruto using the mass shadow clone jitsu, no one ever knows who the real one is, they attack and the clone disappears. This is that spell.

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[ThePolarBear]

The ruling seems pretty clear to me. The only potential problem is the way 5e deals with attacking invisible targets (which is effectively what the person would be with your eyes closed). The default rules have the player "guess" where they are attacking, and the GM has them roll (even if the target isn't there). That particular rule is one that is mechanically useless, and requires the usage of a combat grid, or some on-the-fly ruling.

If the GM is OK with the player being able to "guess" the right location of the real enemy with his eyes closed (sort of how actual blindfighting tends to work -- you aren't swinging wildly to your right when the guy is moving around to your left), then closing his eyes means he just gets the disadvantage to hit and otherwise ignores the images.

But if your GM does something like setup 4 extra identical pieces on the board, so that the player has to choose which square to attack in, then closing his eyes would make things worse by not only getting disadvantage, but also because he's still having to randomly figure out which square the mage is in.

Anyway, it's the kind of thing should probably be cleared up beforehand.

Some misconceptions:
Mirror Images occupy the same space as the caster. They appear there. And while they move, it's never stated that they ever leave the space.

As Neogod22 said, you do not have to choose what to attack: the spell takes care of it. Also, targeting is not impaired, so any spell that targets the caster and has a save, or any effect of that type, still is applied to the "right" target.

The default assumption for blind people is that, shockingly, they do not have to guess anything as long as they can hear the target. By the rules you can target by hearing - it is specified that "This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see." (PHB - 194; The "that" that is true is "rolling with disadvantage). Being invisible is not enough to prompt a creature to be silent - as is combat: The rules are for combat specifically, after all. The creature in question would need to roll Stealth by taking the Hide action or to have some specific occurrence (zone of silence and so on) that mechanically allows them to be unheard or some specific occurrence (great distance, particularly loud beckground noises...) that prompt for DM adjudication.

If unsure, think of this situation: we have a rogue and a wizard. Both are not in combat. The wizard casts invisibility, the rogue hides with a 22 as a result of the dice. A group of "insert monster" comes. Passive perception 18. The Rogue is still hidden, but what about the wizard? It isnt. He did not bother to move slowly and silently, or to not leave trace. Combat begins, and the "insert monster" notices the wizard. The wizard was not hidden so the wizard was heard. And can be targeted.
If the wizard bothered hiding he would have rolled and prehaps remained hidden. Or still be spotted, because he wasn't quiet enough. And thus can be targeted (and nobody is surprised)

Having the wizard "hidden" for free is a houserule and imho a bad one at that. It completely disregards an ability and limitations that other cases have to abide to gain the same benefits, while in the same situation - being unseen.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Don't have the spell in front of me, but it is a higher level illusion. Does it specifically say that it does not echo sound or create any sounds what so ever?

I'm being a bit of jerk player by asking, but as a DM, I would never have a monster close it's eyes to counter a spell like that. Either the monster will swing through them, or they will toss an AOE to hit the caster anyways. No need for "closing eyes to blindfight while opening them at the end of the turn to avoid any consequences of that action", I just let the spell work as intended.

 

[ThePolarBear]

I mean, i would rule that you have to take the blinded condition at the start of the turn and it will remain for your whole turn - meaning until the start of your NEXT turn. Similar to the beholder cone of anti-magic.

 

[Helldritch]

I recommand you to read the phantasmal force from the PHB. It is not hard to assume that a defensive spell like mirror image will have the same features.

I would rule that all images are making sounds, even utter some words to confuse the viewer. It is said in the spell that the images reacts exactly like the caster. They do what he does. That includes making sounds, moving, speaking and whater else is needed to confuse the viewer into striking the wrong target. So nope, closing your eyes won't help you. True seeing will.

And for the topic.
I don't consider the Bladesinger weak. He is a full caster with no school restriction unlike the Eldritch knight and the Arcane Trickster. It is a wizard that:" Can melee if needed.
Has an excellent AC.
Decent but not exceptional dmg out put in hand to hand."

The blade singer is not a front line character but he can easily stand toe to toe with attackers until helps arrive. A few burning hands, spells like Green flame blade, Thunderwave and zounds of other will help him more than the standard wizard.

The blade singer will be able to plow through trash mobs without resorting to using spell slots. Blade singing and voilà! I kept my fire ball and I will have it for some real challenge. He has all the standard option of a traditional wizard but loses on school specialization in favor of being able to melee.

 

[ThePolarBear]

Except that not seeing actually counters Mirror Image, as written on the spell. Phantasmal Force does not affects undead and construct specifically because it's not an "image" illusion, it's a "mind" illusion. It's a personal affair. Assuming A works like B because they are in the same school is like saying that fireball slows targets because ray of frost does.
And phantasmal force is not a defensive spell. I reccomand you reading Blur. Basically, the attacker is "converting" MI into a stronger version of Blur. Which has no special condition for "creatures unable to see".

MI also states that images mimic your actions; If you want them to make sounds at most you hear the caster BETTER, not worse. And those are not going to be doing anything but that and shifting between other images. On the same spot where the caster is.

You are basically trading a miss chance on attacks for... disadvantage on all attacks, inability to do things that require sight, including casting a lot of spells and taking AoOs, everybody and their mother have advantage attacking you and if conditions are correct you also lose the sense of what is going on around you. DM is going to have fun with you because you are now a stumbling self inflicted blind humanoid. It's a pretty heavy penality. That still requires previous knowledge of the spell to be even considered as a valid strategy for me. I would rule it "ok" to take, in general.

 

[neogod22]

The basics of illusions are to trick the senses into thinking something is real when it isn't. The spells says those that can't see the spell aren't affected, but that only applies to creatures that can't see (something that doesn't rely on sight like a pudding) to begin with. You seeing 4 wizards don't allow you to close your eyes and magically know which one is real, (unless of course you have Blindfighting or tremor sense) you've already been tricked. The spells says the images do exactly what the caster does ie. If a wizard casts magic missiles, all 3 of the illusions also cast it at the same time, you see and hear them chanting and see 12 missiles fly at the target(s). Of course only 3 missiles are real, but you will never know own which are the real ones because the illusions strike at the same exact time in the same exact spot as the real counterpart.

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[ThePolarBear]

The spells says those that can't see the spell aren't affected,

Yes.

but that only applies to creatures that can't see (something that doesn't rely on sight like a pudding) to begin with.

No.

"A creature is unaffected by this spell if it can't see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight."

Three very distinct conditions.

1) Can't See
or
2) Relies on something that is not sight
or
3) Has ways to percieve illusions

Only one needs to apply.

You seeing 4 wizards don't allow you to close your eyes and magically know which one is real, (unless of course you have Blindfighting or tremor sense) you've already been tricked.

Blindfighting and Tremor Sense... Such old edition memories .
About the "you have already been tricked"... And so? If i become blind, i still "see" more than one wizard? Do i see a wizard at all? I can't see, so i do qualify for immunity. "You have already been tricked" is no argument. The spell has not been cast on me. It simply creates 3 images and tricks one of my senses - sight - with continuosly shifting images. If i can't see the images, i'm no longer tricked.

The spells says the images do exactly what the caster does ie. If a wizard casts magic missiles, all 3 of the illusions also cast it at the same time, you see and hear them chanting and see 12 missiles fly at the target(s). Of course only 3 missiles are real, but you will never know own which are the real ones because the illusions strike at the same exact time in the same exact spot as the real0 counterpart.

WHAT? No! The images simply mimic the gestures of the caster, there are no 12 missiles appearing. The spell effects are not part of the caster. This yet again does not allow anyone to understand who is what, since shuffling prevents recognition instantly. Unless you happen to not be able to see or blindsight or truesight or any other condition that applies.

Mind you - i'm not saying that YOU should allow someone to close their eyes as a valid strategy. But it's undeniable that if you close your eyes you can't see, and that Mirror Images does not affect those that can't see. Everything else i've said it was always preceded by "i would rule" or "i would allow". Or closing with a "for me".

By the way: Bladesinger FTW (a pretty pathetic and sad attempt to go back to what this thread is about...)
Would you allow non-Elf or non Part-Elf Bladesingers in your campaign? Yes/No/Why?
Personally, i would allow them. Not that this has ever come into question on any table i played/dmed... Since the only person i've ever seen kicked out from a table was playing a bladesinger. And that person is known to all those i play with. And bladesinger have since aquired some sort of "laughable status" and nobody seems to want to play them (but not the person mind you - only bladesingers).

 

[zaratan]

It's a good discussion but I don't get why bing blind for one entire round is better than fight agaist mirror image, it's not only get disadvantage in the attack, all enemies will attack you with advantage. And in the next round he'll need to close his eye again, since the mirror images still there.

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[FormerlyHemlock]

Blindfighting and Tremor Sense... Such old edition memories .

Tremorsense is still a thing in 5E.

[h=4]Tremorsense[/h]A monster with tremorsense can detect and pinpoint the origin of vibrations within a specific radius, provided that the monster and the source of the vibrations are in contact with the same ground or substance. Tremorsense can’t be used to detect flying or incorporeal creatures. Many burrowing creatures, such as ankhegs and umber hulks, have this special sense.