D&D 5E Totally underwhelmed by 5e bladesinger, am I missing something?

[zaratan]

If you don't want to roll, why don't use passive perception agaist passive stealth?

It's possible to use the stealth as free action and doesn't make cunning action less usefull. Make the free action only use half movement (moving quietly) while cunning action can use the entire movement, make cunning action test with advantage while invisible and the free action not. The free action will be mith disadvantage in the first turn... the is a lot of options to do not make cunning action useless comparing with invisibility in that case.

 

[dagger]

There is no extra dice rolling. But if you want to turn the invisiblity spell into 'cant attack me at all, defeats all senses. no rolling required' I suggest changing the name of the spell from 'invisibility' to 'imperceivability'.

This has never happened to us while playing 1e,2e,3.0,3.5,3.PF, or 5e. If it does, I will be sure to post about it.

 

[Flamestrike]

The rules for Stealth are expressly 'ask your DM' so I'm not going to debate it any further. You blokes have your way of doing it and if it works for you then more power to you.

For mine the rules are clear and make sense. There is an action economy in place (it's an action to Hide and it's an action to Search) with some classes able to do it quicker (investigator rogue gets bonus action search, rogues and Rangers get bonus action hide).

Play it how you want.

 

[neogod22]

Give them cunning action (the ability to hide as a bonus action). Done.

Goblins, shadow demons and a few other critters come with this out of the box.

That way they can turn invisible and attempt to Hide straight away (instead of remaining exposed to attack for a turn).

Not that you need it with something like a Pixie. On thier turn, they cast invisibility (somehow) and fly up. Being invisible they are immune to AoO's as they move. Your PCs now get one turn to hit them with ranged attacks (at disadvantage) but not targetted spells (they're invisible so they're immune to these) before the Pixies get to attempt to Hide on turn 2.

They get +7 to Stealth, so next turn they should be all but hidden when they take the Hide action.

Wrong. Hiding is an action, but moving silently is your movement. It does not require you to hide to use.

An example of hide is: combat starts, the rogue is feeling nervous out in the open, so he decides to hide behind a tree. The enemy saw the rogue running away, and was about to give chase until he lost sight of him in the tree line.

An example of the use of stealth and hide is: the enemy crashing through the trees looking for the rogue. He stops within 30ft. of where he is hiding, the rogue could sneak attack with his blow, but he's unsure if he can kill this guy, and don't want the guy in his face the next turn, so he makes a stealth check (vs the enemy's perception at disadvantage) to see he can move away another 15ft before firing. He makes it, moves away, and fires with sneak attack, then uses cunning action to hide again.

What happens is the enemy get shot with the arrow and is severely wounded, he looks around in the direction of the arrow, but still can't see the rogue. Had the rogue failed his either hide or his stealth check, he would've lost sneak attack. Had the rogue been in melee range, he could've stabbed the guy, used cunning action to hide again, and then snuck away, had he failed his stealth check while trying to sneak away, his position would've been exposed in the movement, not the hide.

An example of stealth without hide is: you have to cross an open room, and the guard has his back to you. You make a stealth roll to get across the room without alerting him. The difference here is, there's no where to hide, so you can't use the action to hide if you fail your stealth check. (The guard hears a noise, turns around and sees you.)

As a DM, I would rule that an invisible creature is automatically hidden. It can move at full speed and make a stealth check against your passive perception at disadvantage. If he tries to move stealthily (at half movement), he gains advantage to the roll. The difference between a hidden rogue, and an invisible creature is, you have a chance of seeing the rogue and you can't with the invisible creature.

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[Helldritch]

[MENTION=6857879]neogod22[/MENTION]
You sir, found the argument I have been searching for but couldn't get my mind (and eyes) on. Now everything is falling into place and rule bound.

Thanks a lot.
This is exactly what I have been trying to get across in multiple different posts. I just couldn't find the proper way to say. But you SIR you did it.
Kudo on that one.

 

[Flamestrike]

Wrong. Hiding is an action, but moving silently is your movement. It does not require you to hide to use.

Rubbish mate. Hidden is expressly defined in the PHB as 'unseen and unheard'.

To Hide (become unheard) in combat you need to take the Hide action.

Cunning action lets rogues [Hide]+[Move] move silently and then [Attack] all on the same turn. Its a core class feature of the Rogue.

Wizards dont get it for a reason.

An example of stealth without hide is: you have to cross an open room, and the guard has his back to you.

So you take the Hide action and then you move. You have to take the Hide action to become hidden. Until you do, you are either seen or heard or both. In this case the Rogue is unseen but not unheard. To become unheard in combat he has to first become hidden. To become hidden he has to take the Hide action.

If succesful he becomes hidden and can approach the Guard (who has his back to the Rogue) with his movement. If he's a second level Rogue he can attack in the same turn.

If hes a Wizard, he'll have to wait a turn, and hope the guard doesnt turn around on his turn.

You make a stealth roll to get across the room without alerting him. The difference here is, there's no where to hide, so you can't use the action to hide if you fail your stealth check. (The guard hears a noise, turns around and sees you.)

'Hide' is the name of the action. It includes both hiding and moving silently. Read the definition of 'hidden'.

As a DM, I would rule that an invisible creature is automatically hidden.

Cool man but youre wrong. That said its your game but I'd probably quit with those absurd rules. If that was the rules, it'd say so. The invisible condition just lets you hide. It doesnt make you 'automatically hidden as a free action with an infinite Stealth check result'.

 

[Charles Rampant]

For what it's worth, I agree with Flamestrike. Making a Skill Check in combat requires an action; the Combat chapter (especially pages 192-193) make this apparent, with specific reference to Hiding and Searching (which are, to be fair, the two most likely to arise). You may rule it differently in your games, which is totally your call, but you should understand that the PHB as written specifies that the Hide action is used to become hidden. Note that the MM backs this up, with various monsters (Goblins, Dragons) using either Bonus or Legendary actions to make Hide or Search skill checks, instead of their main action.

In general, I find that keeping a fairly strict 'rolling the D20 to do something requires an action' is true to the spirit of the combat rules, and keeps things simple. Does this mean that Invisibility doesn't let you automatically hide? Yes. Is that a problem? Not for me; if it is for you, then house-rule away!

I hope that this helps, plz don't flame me :'(

 

[neogod22]

Rubbish mate. Hidden is expressly defined in the PHB as 'unseen and unheard'.

To Hide (become unheard) in combat you need to take the Hide action.

Cunning action lets rogues [Hide]+[Move] move silently and then [Attack] all on the same turn. Its a core class feature of the Rogue.

Wizards dont get it for a reason.



So you take the Hide action and then you move. You have to take the Hide action to become hidden. Until you do, you are either seen or heard or both. In this case the Rogue is unseen but not unheard. To become unheard in combat he has to first become hidden. To become hidden he has to take the Hide action.

If succesful he becomes hidden and can approach the Guard (who has his back to the Rogue) with his movement. If he's a second level Rogue he can attack in the same turn.

If hes a Wizard, he'll have to wait a turn, and hope the guard doesnt turn around on his turn.



'Hide' is the name of the action. It includes both hiding and moving silently. Read the definition of 'hidden'.



Cool man but youre wrong. That said its your game but I'd probably quit with those absurd rules. If that was the rules, it'd say so. The invisible condition just lets you hide. It doesnt make you 'automatically hidden as a free action with an infinite Stealth check result'.

You know what I hare, is when people make up. Page 177 in the players hand book reads:

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[neogod22]

Nothing in hiding says unheard. Hiding in combat says:

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[BookBarbarian]

Congratulations on making me turn my head sideways.