D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

[pemerton]

As I believe I noted above, your average "Prime Material" character (in a Planescape game or otherwise) is COMPLETLY UNAWARE that Demons and Devils have any other names than "Demons" and "Devils"! The fact that the Demons and Devils (and other characters "in the know") know better in NO WAY changes this!

It changes prime material people from being correct to being wrong. That's a huge change.

Qv: in Marvel Comics the vikings are wrong about who Thor and Odin are - they thought they were gods, but really they are something like aliens from another dimension.

If I write a RPG in which vikings are correct in their religous beliefs, and then you rewrite that along the lines of Marvel Comics, you've dramatically changed the game.

 

[Shasarak]

It changes prime material people from being correct to being wrong. That's a huge change.

Qv: in Marvel Comics the vikings are wrong about who Thor and Odin are - they thought they were gods, but really they are something like aliens from another dimension.

If I write a RPG in which vikings are correct in their religous beliefs, and then you rewrite that along the lines of Marvel Comics, you've dramatically changed the game.

Why is it easy to ignore changing Demons to Elementals but such a drastic change making Gods into Aliens?

 

[pemerton]

Why is it easy to ignore changing Demons to Elementals but such a drastic change making Gods into Aliens?

They're both trivial to ignore.

My point is that I disagree with [MENTION=6779993]Elderbrain[/MENTION] (and I think you and [MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION]). I don't accept that the Planescape change is nothing, or is purely "additibe", whereas the 4e change is huge. They're both big changes to the fiction - though personally I think the Planescape one is bigger, because it changes the relationship of demons to human gods and morality (by making "Joe Peasant" and his/her clerical advisors wrong about all that), whereas the 4e one leaves all that intact but changes the metaphysics (by sharpening the metaphysical contrast between the heavens and the chaos/abyss). But if you happen to prefer the earlier fiction, in either case, they're both trivially ignored.

Hence my point that 4e is not some dramatic change unlike anything that proceeded it.

 

[Shasarak]

They're both trivial to ignore.

My point is that I disagree with @Elderbrain (and I think you and @I'm A Banana). I don't accept that the Planescape change is nothing, or is purely "additibe", whereas the 4e change is huge. They're both big changes to the fiction - though personally I think the Planescape one is bigger, because it changes the relationship of demons to human gods and morality (by making "Joe Peasant" and his/her clerical advisors wrong about all that), whereas the 4e one leaves all that intact but changes the metaphysics (by sharpening the metaphysical contrast between the heavens and the chaos/abyss). But if you happen to prefer the earlier fiction, in either case, they're both trivially ignored.

Hence my point that 4e is not some dramatic change unlike anything that proceeded it.

Ok, so if morality is an issue for you along with Aliens pretending to be Gods, then how to you justify the elevation of Asmodeus from Devil to God in 4e? How does that affect "Joe Peasant" and his clerical advisors?

 

[pemerton]

Ok, so if morality is an issue for you along with Aliens pretending to be Gods, then how to you justify the elevation of Asmodeus from Devil to God in 4e? How does that affect "Joe Peasant" and his clerical advisors?

I don't understand the question.

I've always treated Asmodeus as a "fallen" god - 4e is one particular implementation of this. Treating Asmodeus as a god has its origins in 1st ed AD&D: both DDG and MoP treated archevils (and demon princes) as lesser gods, although DDG p 90 says that these beings "very rarely have human worshippers".

But if you don't like Asmodeus as a god, then you just ignore that stuff. Why would ignoring that be any harder than ignoring anything else you don't like?

 

[Shasarak]

I don't understand the question.

I've always treated Asmodeus as a "fallen" god - 4e is one particular implementation of this. Treating Asmodeus as a god has its origins in 1st ed AD&D: both DDG and MoP treated archevils (and demon princes) as lesser gods, although DDG p 90 says that these beings "very rarely have human worshippers".

But if you don't like Asmodeus as a god, then you just ignore that stuff. Why would ignoring that be any harder than ignoring anything else you don't like?

Oh, I see. Because you already considered Asmodeus to be a "God" you do not see any conflict. Whereas someone who saw Devil as an Alien creature may have a moral conflict with the 4e presentation of one of them pretending to Godhod as per your Odin example.

 

[pemerton]

Oh, I see. Because you already considered Asmodeus to be a "God" you do not see any conflict. Whereas someone who saw Devil as an Alien creature may have a moral conflict with the 4e presentation of one of them pretending to Godhod as per your Odin example.

The point is - you ignore it.

Given how I ran devils and demons in AD&D, I just ignored the stuff in Planescape that changed them. If you liked the Planescape changes, and then didn't like the changes that 4e made them took them back towards AD&D, just ignore the later changes. What's the problem?

The same as everyone who used the Ilithiad ignored the mindflayer canon in DSG - which I've mentioned multiple times in this thread but that no one else seems to care about, not even the canon enthusiasts.

 

[Shasarak]

The point is - you ignore it.

Given how I ran devils and demons in AD&D, I just ignored the stuff in Planescape that changed them. If you liked the Planescape changes, and then didn't like the changes that 4e made them took them back towards AD&D, just ignore the later changes. What's the problem?

The same as everyone who used the Ilithiad ignored the mindflayer canon in DSG - which I've mentioned multiple times in this thread but that no one else seems to care about, not even the canon enthusiasts.

The main difference, as I see it, is that the history of a particular creature like the mindflayer in this instance, is of secondary importance to the current day. So whether Mindflayers are mutated humans, or time traveling space travelers or creatures from the Far realm is less important then this thing that is trying to eat my brain right now.

Because I can not remember any significant mechanical changes to the Mindflayer over the editions even 4e appears to cleave as close as it can.

 

[pemerton]

The main difference, as I see it, is that the history of a particular creature like the mindflayer in this instance, is of secondary importance to the current day. So whether Mindflayers are mutated humans, or time traveling space travelers or creatures from the Far realm is less important then this thing that is trying to eat my brain right now.

But being elemental vs outsider does matter?

In any event, the DSG didn't say anything much about the origin of mindflayers. It talked about their goal - namely, the obliteration of the sun.

Because I can not remember any significant mechanical changes to the Mindflayer over the editions even 4e appears to cleave as close as it can.

All of them. It was a complete sea change.

Which of these is the case?

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

I'm used to add to the setting instead of ignoring parts of it. If the books say Elminster lives in Shadowdale, I'll probably never move him somewhere else, but I might add a second powerful wizard, from my own design, living in a nearby village.

Whatever you prefer. In my game Elminster is a bum living in an alley near Mission Street in San Francisco, that way my FR capmpaign stays blessedly free of him and other overpowered Greenwoodian NPCs.