D&D 5E "Charge Up" Mechanic: A problem for D&D

[Horwath]

I've been playing Pillars of Eternity (Computer RPG based off the old Baldur's Gate classic) recently. Although its roots are in 2nd Edition D&D, PoE is its own thing and they branched out with their own lore and their own mechanics. While similar to classic D&D, they are very different.

One of the recent threads here on resources got me thinking about class mechanics in D&D, and since I'm playing PoE I immediately started to compare it. Unless I'm mistaken (and please correct me if I'm wrong), but there aren't any D&D classes that build up their resources over the course of an encounter is there? All D&D classes start the day with all their resources, and slowly dwindle down as they use them, with only Short Rests able to give them a little bit of a pick up.

I'm going to use the Battlemaster as an example. What if they started the day with 0 Superiority Dice, but gained them (to a max of 4) every time they hit an enemy, and then lost all remaining Superiority Dice at the end of combat? Would something like that be viable in the D&D world?

Right now every D&D class is set up to potentially unload the very first round, but grow weaker the longer the fight goes on. From what I've read people report and from my own experience, most combat encounters only last about 3-4 rounds. It would be interesting to see a class that was more potent in Round 3 or 4 than Round 1 or 2.

But that is how human body(or and other organism works).

You start fresh after sleeping and eating, and as the day goes you burn energy. Especially in battle. You would need some "magic" measure so you could drain energy from others.

I.E. vampiric touch spell. But even that drains your magic energy to gain life energy. It's hard to gain energy that is now coming from ones own metabolic system.

If you want to say "magic" go ahead, might be cool. But for some mundane fighter to gain energy by expending energy to attack? No way!.


Maybe what you are looking is variant of combo points or combo hits, like;

after you hit with both weapons while dual wielding you could rend for additional damage,

or if you hit 2 times in a turn with and axe you could try a trip maneuver with the hook of the axe head for free.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I think those sorts of mechanics were cut in favor of simplicity. Same with ongoing damage, marking and other effects. Heck it takes the 5E designers an entire sentence to say something 4E made simple, "save ends".

These sorts of things were intentional stylistic departures from 4E, and I think they were done to deemphasize tactical combat.

That is true. The first thing I thought of when I read the initial post was "bladelock pact boons." It would be an interesting gimmick for warlocks (you get more power when you hurt someone), but it is very unlikely in 5e.

 

[Sunseeker]

The problem is that you would need to emphasize longer and larger fights, which 5E explicitly does not. My thoughts would be to take from JRPGs and go with "stages". Every time you reach a "stage" your power is saved until you take a long rest, but the higher stage you reach, the more interesting effects your "Big Red Button" attack had. That attack burns all your power, so I don't see an issue with saving up power over the course of the adventuring day, it would be the same as encouraging players not to nova. That would also solve the problem of needing longer and larger fights.

Lets take from the WoW rage system to do something like:
Rage Fighter: The more this class fights, the more dangerous it becomes.
Each time the Rage Fighter hits with an attack, they generate 1 Rage, if they crit, they get 2 points.
At 10(or whatever number balances) Rage they may use Special Attack which does *effect*. For each 10 Rage above 10 spent on Special Attack the Rage Fighter may have Special Attack do one additional effect such as: Shove your target 5 feet (+5 for each 10 Rage spent on this effect); Cleave deal the same damage to +1 enemy per 10 Rage points spent, (if you would have hit their AC as well); Knockdown, (+2 to the DC for each 10 points spent); Bonus Damage +1 damage die for each 10 points spent; etc....
The Rage Fighter has a list of Special Attacks to choose from, much like the Battlemaster, however the Rage Fighter's Special Attacks focus on offense.
Blind Rage: the Rage Fighter may discount the cost of one Special Attack by 10 points, by taking a -2 to their AC until their next short rest. 1/short rest.
Endless Rage: The Rage Fighter may discount the cost of his next attack by 100 rage, but takes a -5 to AC until they take a long rest and gains 2 points of Exhaustion after the attack. 1/long rest.

 

[Sunseeker]

But that is how human body(or and other organism works).

You start fresh after sleeping and eating, and as the day goes you burn energy. Especially in battle. You would need some "magic" measure so you could drain energy from others.

I.E. vampiric touch spell. But even that drains your magic energy to gain life energy. It's hard to gain energy that is now coming from ones own metabolic system.

If you want to say "magic" go ahead, might be cool. But for some mundane fighter to gain energy by expending energy to attack? No way!.


Maybe what you are looking is variant of combo points or combo hits, like;

after you hit with both weapons while dual wielding you could rend for additional damage,

or if you hit 2 times in a turn with and axe you could try a trip maneuver with the hook of the axe head for free.

*eyeroll* here we go again. The fighter doesn't get to do "cool stuff" because he's limited by the human body, real-world physics and IRL martial training. You want cool? Be a wizard!

Why even include Fighters in the game if everything "cool" comes from magic?

 

[Sacrosanct]

Why even include Fighters in the game if everything "cool" comes from magic?

Don't believe he said that.


As far as the general topic, the last time D&D tried to implement video game mechanics into TTRPG? Didn't work out so great, for the success of the game at any rate. It's much better for something like that be a houserule for your gaming table.

 

[Dausuul]

The problem is that you would need to emphasize longer and larger fights, which 5E explicitly does not.

So, what we've got is a scenario where your coolest powers are only usable a) during a boss fight in the later rounds, or b) in a regular fight that runs long for some reason.

I'm not seeing the problem here. In fact, this seems perfect.

But that is how human body (or and other organism works).

What does "the human body" have to do with anything? You're improving your tactical position, setting yourself up for a devastating attack. That might take a few rounds.

 

[Sunseeker]

So, what we've got is a scenario where your coolest powers are only usable a) during a boss fight in the later rounds, or b) in a regular fight that runs long for some reason.

I'm not seeing the problem here. In fact, this seems perfect.

Sure, it would just be quite the different take on classes. You would be expected to be unable to do cool things at first, while most classes are able to do cool things right away, but may not be able to do so later. It's functionality would depend heavily on the party's control of the adventuring day because if you were designed to be unable to do cool things right away and the party didn't do a "full adventuring day" or experienced very few long fights, you would still be unable to do anything cool at the end of the day. Buuuuuuuut that'd why I added those features in my little mess above to let the "Rage Fighter" burn their candle extra bright if a shorter adventuring day is to be expected.

Don't believe he said that.


As far as the general topic, the last time D&D tried to implement video game mechanics into TTRPG? Didn't work out so great, for the success of the game at any rate. It's much better for something like that be a houserule for your gaming table.

Oh please, this is patently false dichotomy. Almost all of the "video game mechanics" stem from D&D to begin with. D&D has plenty of video-game mechanics in it already because it basically invented what we consider "video game mechanics". The only difference 4E made was that those mechanics were more obvious since the crunch had been split off from the fluff. There is no argument you can produce to demonstrate there is a functional difference between D&D mechanics and "video game mechanics" and I'm going to be honest: I'm not interested in seeing your attempts to manufacture one.

And yes, that is what he said. That's what anyone is saying when they start talking about how the fighter can't do X, Y or Z because IRL reasons.

 

[tomBitonti]

Harder to picture for a fighter, but a caster, I could envisage a spell of the sort:

Duration: 3 rounds.
Every round, either, make a ranged attack roll for 2d6 damage, or accumulate energy, adding +1d6 and +2 to hit on the next round. (+2d6 and +4 after two rounds). If you are damaged or move more than 5', make a Con check or loose the accumulated energy.

Thx!
TomB

 

[Dausuul]

On the complexity front: Tracking limited resources is already part of the system (e.g., superiority dice, barbarian rages, etc.). I don't see why this is any more complicated. It's the same thing, just with a different recovery mechanism.

 

[WarpedAcorn]

But that is how human body(or and other organism works).

I get what you're saying, and mostly agree with it. The human body does not get stronger the more stress that is placed on it. This is true. But for short term bursts, placing stress on the body does increase performance.

Since its in the same field, lets talk about fighters. Before a fight, a boxer does not put on his gloves and walk into the ring. Instead he warms up through a series of drills, exercises, meditation, and/or sparring. He does this to get his body in the right gear with blood flowing properly, to manage adrenaline so he avoids an adrenaline dump after the first minute of the fight, and to mentally prepare for combat.

In D&D-land, characters don't get a warm up period so its not unreasonable to think that after a few seconds of combat that their bodies are adjusting to the sudden stresses placed on it and have been shifting into a "fight" mode. And while this wouldn't mean the characters could fight day-long battles and get stronger, it might mean that during the 30-second fights their performance could pick up.