D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Plaguescarred]

No you dont 'hide after going out of view'. There is no break between you going into cover and hiding.

Again, if you and I were in a room and I was watching you sneakily crawl into a box, and close the lid very quietly, I saw you hide. And you cant hide from someone who is watching you.

No you wouldn't see me hide, you would see me close the lid and become heavily obscured or unseen. I am not hidden yet as i have not taken the Hide action. But i'm eligible to try to hide now, not being seen clearly anymore. Hiding is not tied to moving out of view at all it's a seperate distinct action.

For the record, a 3 meter diameter patch of darkness isnt enough to sufficiently obscure a creatures position enough for him to attempt the Hide action in while being observed going into it.

I'd probably let him attempt the Hide action while in the darkness to use the secret door and slink off unnoticed however.

Yes a 10 square of darkess can let you hide since creatures can't see you clearly anymore while obscured by it (unless they can see in it somehow). Again wether the creature moves or not afterward is irrevelant, if it's totally obscured, it can try to hide, this wether in darkness, invisible, unseen by other circumstances i.e blinded.

I assume you'd ask a creature that become invisible to move before it can try to hide as well? Or after a creature become blinded?

No you cant, because the act of you getting in the box is part of the act of you hiding from me.

Using plain english.

You're parsing [getting in the box] and [taking the hide action].

In plain english, there is no parsing. You climbing in the box, is you attempting to hide from me.

If you climb in the box while I observe you, you are not hidden in that box. No amount of being quiet is going to make you hidden.

If you climb inside the box while I am not observing you, you can be hidden in that box. It depends on how silent you can be inside that box (represented by your stealth check to hide). If you pass your stealth check to hide, you are hidden. I dont know you're in the box. If you fail, I hear you in that box, and you are not hidden from me.

See where you're going wrong yet?

I'm not adding (or removing) any extra requirements to hiding. I'm just interpreting the sentence 'you cant hide from someone who can see you' in its plain english every day normal meaning (as it was intended to be read).

You're adding a requirement that doesn't exist by insisting that someone being seen moved out of view cannot hide. If you're not seen clearly and don't make noise you can try to hide, wether it's right after turning a corner or going into a box, this even if you were seen doing so.

Being seen becoming heavily obscured or unseen is not a factor preventing to hide, the latter is even a requirement to even try so.

 

[Springheel]

The difference is that the invisible guy is in a (relative) infinite area of darkness as opposed to standing in a 3m x 3m patch of it.

The invisible guy can make his position (and presence) sufficiently unknown. The dude standing in a small patch of darkness, cant.

I notice that every time you talk about hiding during combat, you seem to automatically incorporate moving to a different position. In the magician's box scenario, the only difference between the person taking the hide action and the person NOT taking the hide action was that the hider was moving quietly.

So would you allow someone to hide if they had used all their movement that round?

 

[Flamestrike]

No you wouldn't see me hide, you would see me close the lid and become heavily obscured or unseen.

PLAIN ENGLISH. NOT RULES JARGON.

Sorry for yelling, I'm just getting sick of repeating myself and couldnt find any other way to bring it to your attention.

Lets try this again:

If I (me, in real life) watch you (you, in real life) open a cardboard box, climb inside and close the lid really really quietly, I am watching you hide.

And because I am watching you hide, you can't hide from me by crawling into your cardboard box and closing the lid really really quietly. Your hiding attempt fails.

I know where you are. I'm watching you. And you cant hide from a creature that is watching you.

Plain english. Common sense. Not rules jargon. That's the intended interpretation of the sentence from the PHB of 'You cant hide when a creature is watching you'.

 

[seebs]

No you cant, because the act of you getting in the box is part of the act of you hiding from me.

Using plain english.

And shouting "you're really stupid" at someone is part of the act of attacking them. Using plain English.

Don't assume that every meaning of every word is applicable when discussing rules.

This is like discussions in 3E of whether waving your arms was "moving". If you want to know whether you need to take a move action to do it, the answer is "no". If you want to know whether you can do it while paralyzed, the answer is "yes".

The discussion of hiding refers to the game rules for "hidden", not the act of doing a thing which causes you to leave someone's view. Otherwise we'd be obliged to conclude that you can't walk behind a thing while observed, because that would be hiding while clearly observed, and that's nonsense.

 

[seebs]

PLAIN ENGLISH. NOT RULES JARGON.

Sorry for yelling, I'm just getting sick of repeating myself and couldnt find any other way to bring it to you attention.

Lets try this again:

If I (me, in real life) watch you open a cardboard box, climb inside and close the lid really really quietly, I am watching you hide.

And because I am watching you hide, you can't hide from me by crawling into your cardboard box and closing the lid really really quietly.

I know where you are. I'm watching you. And you cant hide from a creature that is watching you.

Exactly!

That is why your position is nonsensical: Because it's absolutely clear that crawling into a box is hiding using that sense of the word, and the rules don't say "hiding from a creature that is watching you is ineffective", they say you can't hide from a creature that is watching you.

So obviously, that's not what they mean.

What they mean is that you can't Become Hidden, where "Hidden" is a game state.

 

[Flamestrike]

Exactly!

That is why your position is nonsensical: Because it's absolutely clear that crawling into a box is hiding using that sense of the word, and the rules don't say "hiding from a creature that is watching you is ineffective", they say you can't hide from a creature that is watching you.

No-one is stopping you from trying to hide while Im watching you. Its just that you fail. Each and every time.

Come to my house and try it. Like actually come on over.

Ill get a box set up in the living room, and you can crawl in it all you want as quiet as you want all while I watch you.

You'll fail to hide from me on every single occasion you attempt it as long as I'm watching you.

You know why? Because you cant hide from a creature that is watching you.

 

[Flamestrike]

The discussion of hiding refers to the game rules for "hidden", not the act of doing a thing which causes you to leave someone's view. Otherwise we'd be obliged to conclude that you can't walk behind a thing while observed, because that would be hiding while clearly observed, and that's nonsense.

You're only obliged to interpret the sentence 'You cant hide from a creature that can see you' as 'The act of watching someone prohibits them from crawling inside a box and trying, effectively paralyzing them if they try' if you're prepared to torture English language to the nth degree.

Common sense interpretation. If your interpretation leads to absurdity (as yours does) then its probably the wrong one.

 

[seebs]

You're only obliged to interpret the sentence 'You cant hide from a creature that can see you' as 'The act of watching someone prohibits them from crawling inside a box and trying, effectively paralyzing them if they try' if you're prepared to torture English language to the nth degree.

Common sense interpretation. If your interpretation leads to absurdity (as yours does) then its probably the wrong one.

But that's not my interpretation. It's what happens if I actually apply yours.

What actually happens is, you move behind the pillar, or into the box (not hiding, moving), and then after the watcher can't see you, you "hide". Because they aren't still watching you once you are in the box.

Now, in the box case, obviously if they look in the box, you're not obscured in any way and they'll probably spot you. But with something like the pillar, once you've become-hidden, you can move from one cover to another and possibly remain hidden, because while they have an approximate notion of where you are, they aren't watching you anymore, because you're behind a solid object.

The key here is that the hide action occurs at a time when you're no longer watching, and "move behind the pillar" isn't "hide". It's "create circumstances under which hiding is possible".

 

[Flamestrike]

But that's not my interpretation. It's what happens if I actually apply yours.

'As Matt looked on, James crawled into the cardboard box as quiet as a mouse, and slowly closed the lid. Matt smiled and said aloud: James you fool, you cant hide while you're being watched.'

Matt's statement to James is just a statement of common sense. The fact that James cant hide while Matt watches him doesn't prohibit James from trying. It just means that James cant hide while Matt is watching him.

I mean he can try. Just like he can try to jump to the moon. Its just he fails every time. Every time James tries to hide [get in that box as quiet as a mouse] while Matt watches him, he fails to become hidden.

Because (plain english) you cant hide from a creature that is watching you closely.

What actually happens is, you move behind the pillar, or into the box (not hiding, moving), and then after the watcher can't see you, you "hide"

What are you doing now you're in the box (that I watched you enter) that this 'hiding' represents?

And why does it matter if the lid is open or closed before you do it?

 

[Hriston]

Exactly. You cant hide if Im watching you go into hiding, because I know where you are. No amount of 'taking the hide action' behind your total cover or in your box helps you. In fact, any such attempt automatically fails.

Because you cant hide from someone that is watching you.

And that's because someone who is watching you knows where you are.

What I think is not being understood is that being hidden means that your location is secret. That's the primary "benefit" of being hidden. I put benefit in scare quotes because it's also a precondition. The benefit is actually that you keep your location a secret when it otherwise wouldn't be.