D&D 5E Why is WoTc still pushing AP's when the majority of gamers want something else?

Dragon had editors.
It also has subscribers and monthly deadlines.
Content had to be out each month, even if it needed an extra couple days or there wasn't anything great pitched that period.

Dragon also couldn't revise itself based on feedback, offering corrections and errata in the main document, or tweak content based on playtesting.


'Currently,' and for virtually the entire time it's been in print. It's the 400lb gorilla of the industry.
Right, but that doesn't mean accessories and new books will sell at the same rate as the core books.

A quarter in 2010, a few in 2011-12 Essentials. Even the announcement of it had a chilling effect. But, yeah, it's a familiar tune: IcV2 was the be-all and end-all of statistics when it showed PF out-selling the odd trailing supplement and ill-advised re-boot for a bad quarter or few before D&D went on hiatus entirely
ICv2 and Amazon rankings. Plus Paizo staff reports from the distributor they shared with WotC.

The first time Pathfinder tied with D&D it was for the for July-September of 2010. Essentials wasn't really announced until the middle of that period (GenCon 2010), so it's unfair to blame that for the "chilling effect". Instead, it comes down to sales during that period: Dark Sun, Monster Manual 3, and maybe Psionic Power.
Essentials is what broke the tie and put D&D back in the #1 spot.

(and conveniently ignoring DDI subscriptions)
And Paizo subscribers and PDF sales.
 

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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
It pretty much was just "exorbitant".

It can't be that bad, as WOIN is published through DriveThru, rather than something like Amazon CreateSpace or Lulu...
So 65% is fine but 50% is "exorbitant"? ;)
(I doubt WotC is going to selling for just 10%; OBS' cut is likely going down from 35% down to maybe 25%, so they're probably also making less money with each DMsG sale compared to a regular DTRPG sale...)

It's really only 0% if you can set something up yourself. But that just moves the fees elsewhere.

Patreon has made that easier, but I'm sure they have service fees as well. And unless you can produce regular content and have a name & reputation, Patreon isn't going to get you much.
Setting up your own website would also have a pretty steep cost. Couple hundred a year: likely far more than most small publishers end up earning.
The most barebones you can go is to set-up a Google sites or Facebook page with a PayPal link to sell your own content; but then you have to personally send out the files rather than have any automation. And you need to work that much harder to raise awareness of your site and product. Advertising suddenly becomes a factor.

Going through Amazon/KDP, Paizo, or OBS is all pretty similar in terms of rates. So it comes down to 50% or 65% really.

If someone is okay with losing 15% for increased visibility and easier legality then it's hardly "exorbitant". And if you're playing in the Realms or Ravenloft, it really comes down to $0 vs non-$0.
My best-selling DMsGuild product is Heroes of the Mists. I spent months working on it thinking, when it was done, I was going to only give it away. As an almost Platinum product (and one of the most pricey non-Adventurer's League products in either Gold or Platinum) that 15% is a fair bit of money. But I could never charge for it before.
Now, my Traps and Diseases & Poisons books are also selling quite well. I could have made some extra $$ making them generic products. Of course, prior to the Guild they were free on my website... so I'm still ahead there. But I'm confident they'd be far less visible on the DriveThruRPG side of things. There's a lot more competition with other game systems, making it harder to be noticed. I've sold over 500 copies of those (Gold) and would have made the same money after 385-ish sales on just DriveThru. The question for me is if being on the Guild has led to an extra 115 sales? Maybe...? I like to think so.

That's a long, passionate argument, and congrats on your sales. It reminds me of when RPGNow first opened. :)

Like I said, it's an individual value judgement. If you're convinced it's all worth it, more power to you.

I will note - ignoring the sarcasm - that "65% is fine but 50% is exorbitant" are your words, not mine.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
It also has subscribers and monthly deadlines.
Content had to be out each month, even if it needed an extra couple days or there wasn't anything great pitched that period.
And, while some Dragon content caught on with some DMs (Len Lakofka's d10 initiative variant, for instance), a lot of DMs wouldn't even consider Dragon content.

There also wasn't a lot circulating besides The Dragon (White Dwarf, various 'zines...).

Right, but that doesn't mean accessories and new books will sell at the same rate as the core books.
Indeed, conventional wisdom suggests much less.

it's a familiar tune: IcV2 was the be-all and end-all of statistics when it showed PF out-selling before D&D went on hiatus entirely (and conveniently ignoring DDI subscriptions), but when the natural order re-asserts itself (D&D returns to comfortably out-selling it's clone, PF) it's all "what about on-line sales...what about subscribers?" ;P
And Paizo subscribers and PDF sales.
 
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dave2008

Legend
Why does that suck? Please don't feel sorry for me. I'm flying along in life. Please save your sorry for all those disadvantaged people out there.

I don't feel sorry for you now, but not being challenged in your early years, as you described, is unfortunate. It is something I struggle with regarding my own children who are more gifted than I was.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
I guess Pathfinders 4 years at the top just shows how slow the publishing world is to correct and adjust direction.

I was listening to Lisa Stevens Gen Con Story Hour and she mentioned that Paizo is working on 2018 products right now.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I'd argue that EN5ider is the closest analogy to Dragon/Dungeon. DMsG is a rather cynical grab at monetising a decades old tradition of fan content at exhorbitant (50%!) rates while doing nothing.

I'd disagree with this.

They own the game and the rights to license others to write for it. Sure you can do non-infringing stuff on En5ider or self-publishing, but that's still limited to a smallish group, and takes some of the content out of the mix. Like if I want to publish stuff for the Forgotten Realms.

A great many of the people (if not the majority) were probably making nothing off of that content before. I know I've written tons of things in the past, and I'm currently working on stuff specifically for DMsGuild because it gives me a place to make it available and possibly make some money as well. Probably not a lot, but I'm not making a career of it. Otherwise I'd have a blog, ebooks and stuff to sell, etc.

They provide the game, the rights to write for it (including using already published material and updating it if you'd like), and hosing a central place to post it in a place where others can find it. They also handle the e-commerce bit which is quite a hurdle for a lot of folks that would like to make money on the internet.

So no, I wouldn't agree with "doing nothing."

I also wouldn't agree with cynical. No offense, but I actually find your argument cynical in attributing a negative motive behind the DMsGuild.

I think it's a rather novel approach to a business question. For example, there are folks here that write content. How can they make some money from it? Maybe it's to help pay for the cost of hosting the forum, gathering the news, whatever. I know, publish some exclusive content and charge money for it. En5ider may pay better rates. Great job! It that open for anybody who wants to write, or is it a limited group of authors?

So let's say your WotC and you own the game. The market is very different from what it was in the late '70s when it seemed like their was no limit to the growth of the game or the hobby. You have only so much staff, but one of the things that makes the game and hobby unique is that every DM is essentially an author in some capacity or another. They can't possibly hire everybody. But there's a ton of unique and interesting material out there.

But what if they provide a central place where you can publish your stuff? Even better, you can make some money on it as well. Yes, they'll take their cut. If you don't like that cut, then go ahead and publish it on your own, although there's some material you don't have access to then.

I'm certainly not complaining that En5sider is looking for an opportunity to monetize a decades old tradition of fan content, nor that WotC is doing so. At some point there's a break-even point, or even a positive profit point if you sell more copies at DMsGuild at 50% than taking 100% on your own site due to visibility.

TSR's answer to fan content was a cease and desist. WotC's position is an enabling one. Is it the only option? No. The most profitable for the author? Debatable, depending on their expertise and exposure. So I don't agree with exorbitant either. I think it'a a great option and opportunity, but the fact that they are also allowing other alternatives is a pretty good indication that it's not a "cynical" decision.

I, for one, can't wait to see some new Ed Greenwood material instead of having to wait for something to fit into WotC product line and schedule. Unedited, undiluted Greenwood.
 


Ilbranteloth

Explorer
According to a Wizards survey, most people run their games using homebrew. Now this can mean anything from using an established setting but giving it your own stamp, or using a completely made up world.

Now Wizards always claimed they were using the surveys to give people what they want but it seems what people want doesn't align with that Wizards wants. When people say they run most of their games using homebrew then you would think they would be jumping to make more regional books, non setting books, and more DM's aids. I think this has been a product of the surveys all along but that's another topic.

So Wizards, we have told you what we want and how we run our games and yet you still try and shove AP's down our throats.

Why?

Somewhere down thread this veered into a slightly different area, but I'd like to respond to the original post.

What most people report they play and what people will buy are two different things.

Homebrew campaigns seem to be one of two different types - either they buy everything and pick and choose, or they buy nothing because all they need are the core books and everything else is their home-brew campaign. I would guess that most of them are the former - they don't buy a lot of published materials.

From a sales standpoint, they learned that more isn't necessarily better. In addition, they have indicated that they aren't interested in just republishing the same material that has been published before. For long-time Forgotten Realms players, for example, a lot of the text in the 3/3.5e supplements was lifted directly from earlier 1e/2e sources. Actually, a lot of the 2e stuff was cut and paste from the 1e supplements.

The 3.5e FR books for example, have all of the regional information and lore that most people would need. Not that much would be updated for a 5e campaign, and they are already covering those aspects in the APs. I have purchased all of them, because I find material in each one I can use in my specific FR campaign. I don't run the AP, but sometimes pull out parts for other adventures.

Yes, there are other aspects, like the spells, magic items, races, and classes (particularly in the 3/3.5e material), but they are taking a different approach to a lot of that.

Volo's Guide to Monsters is a nice approach to update the concept of the Monster Manual instead of just releasing MMII, MMIII, etc. I hope we'll see a similar concept for spells and magic items.

As for the Adventure Paths, they have settled on a new approach that combines the old regional sourcebooks with a multi-part adventure. In the past, many of these might have been separate products made to work together. The problem is that with publishing costs the way they are, combined with the likely number of sales, one large book is more viable than several smaller ones.

I certainly don't think they are "shoving them down our throats." They are sticking with the approach right now because it's working. The vocal folks on forums like this aren't the target audience for the adventure paths. The target audience is the more casual gamer. Those that have the core books and a group of friends, and want to pick up the new adventure and play. The aren't interested in building their own homebrew campaign world. They probably aren't interested in a campaign the way I would approach it at all.

My campaigns are character focused with players playing the same characters for years. Adventure paths are designed to go from 1st to 15th level in a single story arc, and you need to start new characters for the next campaign. The average life-span for those characters is probably 3 to 6 months of play time.

So "we" might have answered the surveys and given them some idea of what people are looking for, but "we" are a very small part of the gaming community. The paying community by all accounts is growing, and is quite happy with the approach so far.

Providing material to the homebrew crowd has always been difficult. I think the DMsGuild services that crowd very well, though. Volo's Guide to Monsters seems like a hit as well. From what I can see they will keep building off of their successes in an intelligent way. From all continuing reports I've seen D&D is enjoying not only a renaissance, but a sustained surge in sales. I strongly suspect that their new publishing approach along with their approach to bringing different media into a unified sales cycle has also increased profitability quite a bit, not just sales.

In the business world, you survey your customers to see what they are looking for, and you measure your success to that response in sales and profitability. Best I can tell, they are a great success in that regard.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I'd disagree with this.

They own the game and the rights to license others to write for it.

Ownership isn't part of the analogy. They own company cars, too, but those aren't analogous to Dragon and Dungeon, either.

Sure you can do non-infringing stuff on En5ider or self-publishing

Too be clear, it's not just non-infringing. It is licensed using a license (the OGL) published by WotC for that exact purpose. An important distinction!

A great many of the people (if not the majority) were probably making nothing off of that content before.

I don't disagree with that.

I also wouldn't agree with cynical. No offense, but I actually find your argument cynical in attributing a negative motive behind the DMsGuild.

Yeah, I am being pretty cynical in this regard. There's no harm in that. Cynicism isn't evil in itself as long as you don't take it to extremes. I definitely wouldn't consider it a "negative motive". YMMV.

En5ider may pay better rates. Great job! It that open for anybody who wants to write, or is it a limited group of authors?

Yep, anybody can submit a pitch to the editor. We have published many first time authors!

Also, we illustrate and do layout, and - the best bit - you retain the copyright to your work.

If you don't like that cut, then go ahead and publish it on your own

That's exactly what I said when I mentioned that the value proposition was for each publisher to make. For me, its too much when the exclusivity issue is wrapped in; for you, clearly, it is not.

For me, the exclusivity is the kicker which breaks the value proposition. Without that, I'd be tempted as an alternative (later) outlet for EN5ider.
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Not bragging. Just trying to establish my... credentials.

Well, congrats again. I'm glad it's working out for you. :)

Not really sarcasm and more of a wink, sly smile, and slight nudging with an elbow.

Well, in answer to your question, yes, the terms of one deal are better than the terms of the other in my opinion. The terms of places like Patreon or Kickstarter are even better. I make use of multiple publishing outlets, but none exclusively.
 
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