D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Hriston]

I thought you agreed that Mask of the Wild allowed a wood elf to remain hidden in foliage you're confusing??

The difference between those two statements is that in one I'm talking about a wood elf that is being seen clearly, and in the other I'm talking about a wood elf that hasn't been seen clearly. I hope that clears up your confusion.

 

[Corwin]

The difference between those two statements is that in one I'm talking about a wood elf that is being seen clearly, and in the other I'm talking about a wood elf that hasn't been seen clearly. I hope that clears up your confusion.

I realize I'm going to regret getting in on this, but...

How can the wood elf, in the described foliage, be "seen clearly"? After all, by the rules, any observer would have disadvantage on their perception check for the light obscurement the foliage is providing. At best, we are talking about "seen unclearly".

 

[Maxperson]

From p 70 of the DMG:

Invisible Opponents: Invisible opponents are always at an advantage. They can only be attacked if they are attacking or otherwise detected somehow.​

I love how you try to reduce combat to only melee. Sorry, but you can still hit an invisible opponent with spells IN COMBAT.

Remember that elves can move silently, so detection is a matter of having the magical ability to do so. If invisible elves have been magically located, however, then they are not hidden.

I don't care how quiet and invisible you are. If you are in the area of my fireball, cast in combat, you're a toasty elf.

Nonsense. Chainmail is the default rules of combat for D&D. If you want to know how combat works in D&D you need to read Chainmail. Using the "Alternative Combat System" doesn't get you out of reading Chainmail, as references to it are found throughout D&D. That's why it's listed as recommended equipment along with dice, pencils, and paper.

It was the foundation for the rules. It was not the default.

No they can't be attacked still. See the above passage from the DMG. It works pretty much like it does in Chainmail.

They can still be affected in combat.

Elves can become visible and attack in the same turn (one minute), meaning they can remain invisible all the way up to the moment of the attack. There is no restriction that would require them to spend the entire turn visible so they could attack instead, as an "action economy" explanation would suggest. No, the elves can't continue to blend in while attacking because in the moment of the attack their position is revealed, and you can't hide when your position is known.

There is also no restriction on vanishing 6 inches in front of an enemy staring you. Twist and spin the wording all you like, you will still never be able to show that restriction to be true.

No, it allows them to become "invisible", and not while attacking. Also, if they hide successfully this way they cannot be attacked and therefore have removed themselves from combat. According to the DMG, p 60, if a creature is observed becoming invisible, it is not hidden and can be attacked with "the standard penalty (-4) for inability to see the target." The 5e ability Mask of the Wild, however, does not grant the wood elf the power to become "invisible" without first successfully hiding.

They can be attacked, just not in melee. A fireball attack is effective against invisible enemies for example.

 

[Maxperson]

I realize I'm going to regret getting in on this, but...

How can the wood elf, in the described foliage, be "seen clearly"? After all, by the rules, any observer would have disadvantage on their perception check for the light obscurement the foliage is providing. At best, we are talking about "seen unclearly".

Yeah. I forget whether it was @Hriston or @Flamestrike, but one of them actually argued that someone who was obscured could be seen clearly.

 

[pemerton]

I realize I'm going to regret getting in on this, but...

How can the wood elf, in the described foliage, be "seen clearly"? After all, by the rules, any observer would have disadvantage on their perception check for the light obscurement the foliage is providing. At best, we are talking about "seen unclearly".

Another piece of the puzzle, where I incline to one view but most of the others - [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION], [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] and I think one or two other posters -is what counts as being "in the open" for purposes of p 64 of the Basic PDF.

 

[Corwin]

Another piece of the puzzle, where I incline to one view but most of the others - [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION], [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] and I think one or two other posters -is what counts as being "in the open" for purposes of p 64 of the Basic PDF.

Your cryptic response does indeed lend a certain air of "puzzle" to the discussion.

 

[pemerton]

Your cryptic response does indeed lend a certain air of "puzzle" to the discussion.

It wasn't meant to be cryptic. I think the notions of "being clearly seen" and "being in the open" are connected (if not necessarily identical), and so raise similar questions about who can be hidden in circumstances of light obscurement. And, therefore, raise further questions about what Mask of the Wild needs to permit, if it is going to give the elf an ability that others lack.

 

[Hriston]

How can the wood elf, in the described foliage, be "seen clearly"? After all, by the rules, any observer would have disadvantage on their perception check for the light obscurement the foliage is providing. At best, we are talking about "seen unclearly".

An observer would have disadvantage on a sight-dependent Perception check in a lightly obscured area, but that doesn't extend to Perception checks that rely on other senses, of which a Perception check to find a hidden creature is a prime example. A hidden creature must already be out of sight, so finding it relies on hearing and other senses.

Now to answer your question, the wood elf can be seen clearly and is out in the open because moderate foliage does not block vision. The only things that block vision are a heavily obscured area or an obstruction.

 

[Plaguescarred]

How can the wood elf, in the described foliage, be "seen clearly"? After all, by the rules, any observer would have disadvantage on their perception check for the light obscurement the foliage is providing. At best, we are talking about "seen unclearly".

I don't think being lightly obscured makes you not seen clearly, otherwise it would mean anyone can try to hide when lightly obscured. IMO the errata to Stealth was not made to now allow everyone to hide while still partially seen in light obscurement when saying you can't hide from someone who can see you clearly but more that some can even when seen with specific feat or features.

The difference between those two statements is that in one I'm talking about a wood elf that is being seen clearly, and in the other I'm talking about a wood elf that hasn't been seen clearly. I hope that clears up your confusion.

But everyone can try to hide and remain hidden when not seen clearly so that doesn't make much sense and doesn't clear up the confusion since you agreed with me when i said the elf could try to hide when as equally seen as the human;

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If none of them try to hide they should as equally be seen. The only difference between them is that the elf has the ability to try to hide while in such foliage.

I agree. I'm not sure what you're arguing with here.

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the wood elf can be seen clearly and is out in the open because moderate foliage does not block vision. The only things that block vision are a heavily obscured area or an obstruction.

If lightly obscured foliage never block vision as you correctly claim, and the Elf has a feature that let it try to hide in such foliage, that means the elf can efefctively try to hide when creatures can still see him and this align with the Sage Advice!

 

[Maxperson]

It wasn't meant to be cryptic. I think the notions of "being clearly seen" and "being in the open" are connected (if not necessarily identical), and so raise similar questions about who can be hidden in circumstances of light obscurement. And, therefore, raise further questions about what Mask of the Wild needs to permit, if it is going to give the elf an ability that others lack.

There are two different things going on with hiding in say a heavy snow. First, you must not be able to be seen clearly in order to hide. Any human or elf can attempt to hide in a snowstorm. However, only a wood elf can actually hide behind falling snow due to its racial ability. A human would need a tree, rock or some other way to become hidden, and if such a thing was present, could succeed at the attempt to hide due to not being seen clearly.