D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

If both the human and the elf cannot be seen clearly then should both be allowed to hide.

But who would they be hiding from? In my example the patrol group comes into sighting range at 150 feet, which is still too far away to hear normal noise levels. They are already undetected and effectively hidden behind the hill without trying. The wood elf's attempt is to keep his location hidden when the patrol group actually has a chance of locating him. The human doesn't have that chance. She will be seen when the patrol comes within sighting distance.

If none of them try to hide they should as equally be seen. The only difference between them is that the elf has the ability to try to hide while in such foliage.

I agree. I'm not sure what you're arguing with here.
 

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So we agree that an observed elf can try to hide and remain hidden in lightly obscured foliage despite being seen or you still argue that he can't?

I still argue that he can't. You can't try to hide and remain hidden if you are observed and being seen. Just the natural language meaning of the word hide should tell you those are mutually exclusive conditions, even for an elf.
 

I'm not sure why you say combat is still going. The elves cannot attack while hidden, or be attacked unless someone has the ability to see invisible objects, in which case the use of their ability has been foiled. Otherwise, combat resumes only when the elves decide to renew the attack.

I say that combat is still going, because combat is still going. The elf stopping does not stop combat. It only stops the elf from attacking. And yes, the elf can in fact be attacked while hidden. In AD&D, which is what we are discussing, elves who are invisible or hidden can be attacked. Combat hasn't stopped.

No, the hidden elves can't be attacked. Here's the passage from p 29 of Chainmail:

When invisible Elves (and Fairies) cannot attack -- or be attacked unless located by an enemy with the special ability to detect hidden or invisible troops -- but they can become visible and attack during the same turn.​

There is no guessing location.

We're talking about D&D. Chainmail is not D&D. It's the miniatures wargame that led to D&D. A miniatures wargame has a different design philosophy than an RPG does, so it's little wonder that when you compare apples and carrots(this isn't even the same kind of food), you see differences. When talking about AD&D, elves can be directly observed while hiding and are still in combat when they do hide since they can be attacked still.

It isn't clear to me that the MM elf is vanishing under observation. To me, the prohibition against blending in while attacking would suggest otherwise.
That's a bunch of hooey. You can attack OR you can do something else. The prohibition is action economy, not some sort of mythical "can't hide while observed" limitation that you want to invent. The rule allows them to hide while 6 inches in front of the face of an attacker, so long as they are in a natural environment. That's a fact.
 

First, I'm not an "ally" of [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION]. I'm posting some of my thoughts about how hiding works, and trying to think through what, in the fiction, takes place when an elf vanishes behind a fall of snow.

Second, I brought up the AD&D ability in trying to develop my understanding of [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION]'s perspective, and I did so because I know (from other posts on other threads) that Hriston is familiar with AD&D and has interesting views about it.

This isn't a competition or a war (in which one confronts enemies in the comapny of allies) - at least, not for me. I'm just talking about how I understand hiding to work. As I've also said, I don't place a lot of stock in the wording of the rules, which I think is not very clear (eg both you and [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] take "in the open" on p 64 of the Basic PDF to include someone who is lightly obscured, whereas my default reading would have been that such a person, because obscured - even if only lightly so - is not "in the open"). I place stock in the fiction.
It's not a war or competition, but there are sides here. You are on the side of [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] and [MENTION=14307]Flamebringer[/MENTION]. If you don't like ally, pick another word that means "On the same side as", and I'll use that.
 



See, this is why the only rogue I've played in 5e is a Swashbuckler. He can sneak attack 90% of the time without needing to Hide. I don't have to worry about the DM's views on hiding in combat, I just stab and go hide behind the barbarian (with at least 10' between is so they can't just circle him to get to me). (I play a lot of Adventure League so I have several potential DM's who may have slightly different views on the rules.)

I only Hide when I don't have anything better to do with my bonus action. :p
 

I say that combat is still going, because combat is still going. The elf stopping does not stop combat. It only stops the elf from attacking. And yes, the elf can in fact be attacked while hidden. In AD&D, which is what we are discussing, elves who are invisible or hidden can be attacked. Combat hasn't stopped.

From p 70 of the DMG:

Invisible Opponents: Invisible opponents are always at an advantage. They can only be attacked if they are attacking or otherwise detected somehow.

Remember that elves can move silently, so detection is a matter of having the magical ability to do so. If invisible elves have been magically located, however, then they are not hidden.


We're talking about D&D. Chainmail is not D&D. It's the miniatures wargame that led to D&D. A miniatures wargame has a different design philosophy than an RPG does, so it's little wonder that when you compare apples and carrots(this isn't even the same kind of food), you see differences.

Nonsense. Chainmail is the default rules of combat for D&D. If you want to know how combat works in D&D you need to read Chainmail. Using the "Alternative Combat System" doesn't get you out of reading Chainmail, as references to it are found throughout D&D. That's why it's listed as recommended equipment along with dice, pencils, and paper.

When talking about AD&D, elves can be directly observed while hiding and are still in combat when they do hide since they can be attacked still.

No they can't be attacked still. See the above passage from the DMG. It works pretty much like it does in Chainmail.

That's a bunch of hooey. You can attack OR you can do something else. The prohibition is action economy, not some sort of mythical "can't hide while observed" limitation that you want to invent.

Elves can become visible and attack in the same turn (one minute), meaning they can remain invisible all the way up to the moment of the attack. There is no restriction that would require them to spend the entire turn visible so they could attack instead, as an "action economy" explanation would suggest. No, the elves can't continue to blend in while attacking because in the moment of the attack their position is revealed, and you can't hide when your position is known.

The rule allows them to hide while 6 inches in front of the face of an attacker, so long as they are in a natural environment. That's a fact.

No, it allows them to become "invisible", and not while attacking. Also, if they hide successfully this way they cannot be attacked and therefore have removed themselves from combat. According to the DMG, p 60, if a creature is observed becoming invisible, it is not hidden and can be attacked with "the standard penalty (-4) for inability to see the target." The 5e ability Mask of the Wild, however, does not grant the wood elf the power to become "invisible" without first successfully hiding.
 

I still argue that he can't. You can't try to hide and remain hidden if you are observed and being seen. Just the natural language meaning of the word hide should tell you those are mutually exclusive conditions, even for an elf.
I thought you agreed that Mask of the Wild allowed a wood elf to remain hidden in foliage you're confusing??


The wood elf can try to sneak by the patrol as long as he hasn't been seen clearly or noticed in some other way, because Mask of the Wild allows him to do so in moderate foliage, and as long as he is hidden he is not in the open.
 

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