D&D 5E Warlocks and Hex and the "daily morning short rest"

[Caliban]

We'll talk about that at the start of our next gaming session together. I might not be able to accommodate your wishes completely, but I am sure we can come up with a compromise that works for both your character and the campaign world. If Mike Mearls shows up with his janky Gnome Illusionist/Barbarian, I'll be willing to hear his point of view as well.

Pretty sure you and I will never be gaming together, but whatever fantasy floats your boat. More power to you.

You asked why else the duration would be 24 hours, and I gave you a reason why the duration would be relevant. While you might have difficulty imagining a group not being willing/able to take short rests during an adventuring day, that speaks more to the strength of your imagination than it does to any cogent rebuttal.

Wow, that's some really poor reading comprehension on your part there. I wasn't saying that it wasn't possible for an adventuring group to go a full 24 hours without a rest. I was saying that it was disingenuous of you to use that as reasoning for a spell to have a 24 hour concentration duration.

If you are going to pretend that the game designers gave just two spells, out of all the spells in the PHB, a 24 hour concentration duration on the tiny, tiny chance that somewhere, someday, a group of PC's will go 24 hours without any rest, and thus will need a spell they can maintain for that duration, and that spell could only be Hunter's Mark or Hex ..well, all I can say is your ability to maintain cognitive dissonance is impressive.

However, I will continue to work on the assumption that the game designers don't write spell descriptions with a 1 in a 1,000 game occurrence in mind. If they specifically call out a 24 hour concentration duration as being possible, not once but twice, then I assume that it's intended to happen a little more often than that.

But the most important thing is that the only clarification we have from the designers matches the conclusion I'd already come too.

You might say that having a short rest in a day is pretty common, and use that as justification for why concentration spells with a 24 hour duration ignores short rests. The flaw in that reasoning is that a 24 hour period is significantly more likely to have a long rest than it is to have a short rest, and your logic would apply equally to those spells ignoring long rests.

After all, since a long rest is even more of a given than a pair of short rests, resulting in an adventuring day that is only really 16 hours long, your logic would apply even more strongly to concentration not being interrupted by long rests.

If you can take a long rest without falling asleep, then you can maintain the concentration on the spell. (You lose concentration if you fall unconscious, and I'm not going to pretend you can be asleep and still be conscious.) Usually you'll only see this with elves, who can trance for 4 hours without actually being asleep.

But it is not actually required that you sleep during a long rest, although most of the time it is assumed you do sleep during at least a portion of it. If for some reason you really needed to maintain Hex for 24 hours, you could do a long rest without sleeping. (As a DM I'd penalize you if you try to go more than 48 hours without sleeping, but people have been able to stay awake for longer when they need or want to. The rules are silent on how sleep deprivation actually affects characters.)

 

[Flamestrike]

How is this a 'thing' in any game featuring a DM?

Players: OK DM. After our long rest, we rest an extra hour...
DM (interjecting): And as you're already rested from your long rest, you gain no benefit from it. Also, (rolls some dice, ignoring the result) your delay seems to have triggered a random encounter (rolls more dice, again disregarding the result, feigns looking worried and concerned for the players). As you sit around twiddling your thumbs, three fire giants stumble on your camp. They're 30' away from you; roll initiative.

Any DM that lets his players game the rest meta doesnt deserve to be behind the screen in my books, as is any DM that allows 'bags-o-rats' or any similar rubbish. Nip this crap in the bud the instant it happens. Man up and do your job as DM and crush any player who tries to game the system with rubbish like this.

If you cant do it as a DM, get in someone who can and put them behind the screen. You dont deserve to be there.

Also (re Warlocks) they can maintain concentration during a short rest. Its clearly RAW both RAI. For long rests if they sleep they become incapacitated while sleeping, and RAW is clear that when incapacitated, you lose concentration on spells. They can also lay on Hex on any subsequent round during the spells duration (likely several hours).

 

[Caliban]

How is this a 'thing' in any game featuring a DM?

Because some DM's are reasonable adults who don't throw hissy fits when their players do something they don't like?

Players: OK DM. After our long rest, we rest an extra hour...
DM (interjecting): And as you're already rested from your long rest, you gain no benefit from it. Also, (rolls some dice, ignoring the result) your delay seems to have triggered a random encounter (rolls more dice, again disregarding the result, feigns looking worried and concerned for the players). As you sit around twiddling your thumbs, three fire giants stumble on your camp. They're 30' away from you; roll initiative.

Speaking of "poorly thought out, knee jerk responses".

Any DM that lets his players game the rest meta doesnt deserve to be behind the screen in my books,

Oh gosh. I can't express how important your books are to me.

Seriously. This isn't a big deal. If you don't like the tactic, maybe try explaining that to the player in question and ask them not to do it before being a jackass about it?

It doesn't really have a big effect on the game if they have Hex running since breakfast or if they don't.

By the time a warlock gets to the level where they can maintain it all day, they have better concentration spells they are going to want to use during a big fight and they'll have to drop the Hex to use them. If they don't need the higher level concentration spell, then it's not a big fight and having a pre-cast Hex isn't going to affect anything. Warlocks only have 2 or 3 spell slots for most of their career, squeezing out an extra spell for the first fight shouldn't be something that can ruin your game.

 

[Ganymede81]

Wow, that's some really poor reading comprehension on your part there. I wasn't saying that it wasn't possible for an adventuring group to go a full 24 hours without a rest. I was saying that it was disingenuous of you to use that as reasoning for a spell to have a 24 hour concentration duration.

If you are going to pretend that the game designers gave just two spells, out of all the spells in the PHB, a 24 hour concentration duration on the tiny, tiny chance that somewhere, someday, a group of PC's will go 24 hours without any rest, and thus will need a spell they can maintain for that duration, and that spell could only be Hunter's Mark or Hex ..well, all I can say is your ability to maintain cognitive dissonance is impressive.

However, I will continue to work on the assumption that the game designers don't write spell descriptions with a 1 in a 1,000 game occurrence in mind. If they specifically call out a 24 hour concentration duration as being possible, not once but twice, then I assume that it's intended to happen a little more often than that.

You asked, "Why else would the duration extend out to 24 hours with a high enough spell slot?"

I answered, "I think it is pretty easy to fathom that some adventuring days, whether through necessity or convenience, have no short rests."

I am not divining the rule intent of the designers, I am not making arching conclusions regarding the rule philosophy behind a 24 hour duration.

I am simply answering your question. You are free to be unsatisfied by the answer, just as I am free to run my game without thinking that the duration of some spell has a secret implication regarding the rules for resting.

But the most important thing is that the only clarification we have from the designers matches the conclusion I'd already come too.

You might put a lot of weight in how Mike Mearls runs his own campaigns, and that's cool (I'm not going to tell you that your game rulings are wrong unless they actually contradict a written rule, and even then, it is your game), but "Hey look, another DM runs it the same way I do" is not the same thing as "This is simply how the rule works."

The bottom line is that there is no rule that says whether or not concentrating on a spell is more strenuous than "eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds." As such, it is an area of DM discretion. We might play things differently, and that's fine, but let's not pretend that you are following the rules correctly and I am following them incorrectly.


Aside from that, I would strongly encourage you to rethink the tone of your posts. You are a grown adult (I assume), so how about we communicate without your layers of snark, condescension, and passive-aggressiveness? I think it would result in a much friendlier exchange.

If you can take a long rest without falling asleep, then you can maintain the concentration on the spell. (You lose concentration if you fall unconscious, and I'm not going to pretend you can be asleep and still be conscious.) Usually you'll only see this with elves, who can trance for 4 hours without actually being asleep.

But it is not actually required that you sleep during a long rest, although most of the time it is assumed you do sleep during at least a portion of it. If for some reason you really needed to maintain Hex for 24 hours, you could do a long rest without sleeping. (As a DM I'd penalize you if you try to go more than 48 hours without sleeping, but people have been able to stay awake for longer when they need or want to.)

For someone that holds Mike Mearls' rulings in such high esteem, you are quick to abandon them.

https://twitter.com/RodneyWade2/status/611600025387319296?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/619584557658959872?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

 

[Caliban]

You asked, "Why else would the duration extend out to 24 hours with a high enough spell slot?"

I answered, "I think it is pretty easy to fathom that some adventuring days, whether through necessity or convenience, have no short rests."

I am not divining the rule intent of the designers, I am not making arching conclusions regarding the rule philosophy behind a 24 hour duration.

I am simply answering your question. You are free to be unsatisfied by the answer, just as I am free to run my game without thinking that the duration of some spell has a secret implication regarding the rules for resting.

Wow, repeating previous posts word for word as if I hadn't read and responded to them already. And then you try to take me to task for MY tone. The hubris is strong with this one.

You might put a lot of weight in how Matt Mearls runs his own campaigns, and that's cool (I'm not going to tell you that your game rulings are wrong unless they actually contradict a written rule, and even then, it is your game), but "Hey look, another DM runs it the same way I do" is not the same thing as "This is simply how the rule works."

Not "another DM", but a game designer. And not just any game, but the very game we are discussing.

Guess whose opinion has more weight as far as I'm concerned? Yours, or the game designer who shares my reading of the rule?

The bottom line is that there is no rule that says whether or not concentrating on a spell is more strenuous than "eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds." As such, it is an area of DM discretion. We might play things differently, and that's fine, but let's not pretend that you are following the rules correctly and I am following them incorrectly.

*shrug* I'm not the one pretending things here, Mr. "Some day a group may not want to take any rests, so that is reason enough for these two spells to have a 24 hour concentration".

Aside from that, I would strongly encourage you to rethink the tone of your posts. You are a grown adult (I assume), so how about we communicate without your layers of snark, condescension, and passive-aggressiveness? I think it would result in a much friendlier exchange.

I strongly encourage you to take your own advice. Seriously, you have been condescending from the get go.

For someone that holds Mike Mearls' rulings in such high esteem, you are quick to abandon them.

https://twitter.com/RodneyWade2/status/611600025387319296?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/619584557658959872?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Once again, a reading comprehension failure on your part. Mike Mearls tweets don't disagree with what I said -

But it is not actually required that you sleep during a long rest, although most of the time it is assumed you do sleep during at least a portion of it.

Sleep is assumed to take place on a long rest, but it is not actually required.

 

[Flamestrike]

Because some DM's are reasonable adults who don't throw hissy fits when their players do something they don't like?

This isnt players 'doing something the DM doesnt like'. Its players actively trying to meta-game the system (in particular the rest mechanic). Its no different to 'bag of rats' rubbish, or a PC leaping into magma because 'I have enough hit points to survive'.

Its metagaming plain and simple, and should be shut down by any competent DM.

The OP is looking to shut it down with a rules solution. My solution is 'just DM it'.

Speaking of "poorly thought out, knee jerk responses".

Actually its a well though out response. Players who attempt to game the system get gamed in return. After this happens once or twice, they tend to stop trying and get on with just playing the game.

Seriously. This isn't a big deal. If you don't like the tactic, maybe try explaining that to the player in question and ask them not to do it before being a jackass about it?

To be honest my players wouldnt try because they know that metagame gamist like this is against the social contract at my table. I wouldnt try it as a player for the same reason.

Sometimes a good DM knows when to say No. You dont need any kind of rules to do it ('New rule You cant benefit from a short rest until youve had at least one encounter since your last rest'); you jest need to be firm (but fair) with your players, and dont be afraid to say No from time to time.

But in response to your point, I of course would point it out first by explaining it to them. Id also explain that gaming the the system is a no-no in my games and will be met with similar gaming the system from the DM in the future should it happen again (i.e. rocks falling).

It doesn't really have a big effect on the game if they have Hex running since breakfast or if they don't.

By the time a warlock gets to the level where they can maintain it all day, they have better concentration spells they are going to want to use during a big fight and they'll have to drop the Hex to use them. If they don't need the higher level concentration spell, then it's not a big fight and having a pre-cast Hex isn't going to affect anything. Warlocks only have 2 or 3 spell slots for most of their career, squeezing out an extra spell for the first fight shouldn't be something that can ruin your game.

I play a Warlock and I regularly push for a short rest early in the day (after a few encounters, as the story permits) to rest up and recover the expended slot (while keeping Hex up during the rest). I dont do it as some kind of gamist '9 hour short rest with my bag-o-rats' gaming of the rest mechanic, and I would expect to be shut down by the DM if I tried.

In fact, I'd be highly dissapointed if I was playing in a game where a DM allowed it. It would break my immersion, and weaken my respect for that DM (and the player that had the audacity to even ask).

 

[Caliban]

In fact, I'd be highly dissapointed if I was playing in a game where a DM allowed it. It would break my immersion, and weaken my respect for that DM (and the player that had the audacity to even ask).

Wow. Just...wow. You should get out more.

 

[Flamestrike]

Wow. Just...wow. You should get out more.

Its no different to a Sorlock asking to spend 3 hours short resting (3 times) to recycle spell slots into sorcery points.

I'd simply say 'It doesnt work'. And then roll three times for random encounters if he sooked about the ruling. You only ever have to do this the once.

Some players (not all) are gonna try and game the system. Its just part and parcel of the game we play. And you dont need rules for stopping your players from gaming the system. A simple two letter answer is enough.

Try a wish loop with a candle of invocation at my table and see how far it gets you.

A good DM says Yes. But a great DM isnt afraid to say No.

 

[Ganymede81]

The OP is looking to shut it down with a rules solution. My solution is 'just DM it'.

That's really the only solution as there is no "rules solution." Here are the relevant rules...

"Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn’t interfere with concentration." - Pg. 203

"[A character taking a short rest can do] nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds." - Pg. 185


Concentration is obviously less intense than moving and attacking, but there is nothing that indicates it is more or less intense than eating, drinking, reading, or tending to wounds. In other words, it is more strenuous than adventurin', but it is an open question whether it is more intense than chillin'.

In the absence of a relevant rule, that leaves it up to the DM to adjudicate the situation. Personally, I rule that maintaining concentration, while less intense than actually casting a spell, is still more strenuous than relaxing by the campfire. It works for my group, and has the side effect of fixing the OP's issue nicely.

 

[Caliban]

Its no different to a Sorlock asking to spend 3 hours short resting (3 times) to recycle spell slots into sorcery points.

I'd simply say 'It doesnt work'. And then roll three times for random encounters if he sooked about the ruling. You only ever have to do this the once.

Some players (not all) are gonna try and game the system. Its just part and parcel of the game we play. And you dont need rules for stopping your players from gaming the system. A simple two letter answer is enough.

Try a wish loop with a candle of invocation at my table and see how far it gets you.

A good DM says Yes. But a great DM isnt afraid to say No.

You really aren't helping yourself.