D&D 5E [5E] The few mechanical implications of... non-magical weapon immunity and CR.

[CapnZapp]

Resistant creatures haven't been interesting in D&D for a long, long time.

Yes.

I don't think this has been a concern even once in 5E.

I keep reading about parties without any magic weapons and no energy-based attack forms (like cantrips), but I don't imagine there are many of them.

If WotC wanted this to be a thing, they would have retained different layers: "The Beeblebrox is immune to non-magical weapons and cantrips, resistant to +1 weapons and level 1-3 spells. Weapons +2 or better and spells 4th level or better work normally".

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Yes. However 5E makes it a little bit too easy because alternative, non-creative methods (especially cantrips) are so readily-available. Most parties will probably never need to use flaming oil or poisonous snakes or drowning to kill a jackalwere, which is a pity.

(Hmmm, magic-immune or magic-resistant jackalweres might be fun for a low-level adventure.)

Cantrips definitely make killing creatures resistant to non-magical weapons easy. Not to mention paladins. Resistant creatures haven't been interesting in D&D for a long, long time.

Trying desperately to drop something with your 1d8+0 cantrip while the rest of the party try to hold it at bay with torches, or wrestle it into the campfire is still a very different experience than fighting something that everyone can deal their usual d8+mod to though.

 

[Celtavian]

Trying desperately to drop something with your 1d8+0 cantrip while the rest of the party try to hold it at bay with torches, or wrestle it into the campfire is still a very different experience than fighting something that everyone can deal their usual d8+mod to though.

Only if the DM makes sure to build the creature with Athletics or Acrobatics. A PC with a high strength and Athletics skill can grapple and restrain a creature without the ability pretty easily. Once he does that creature attacks at disadvantage and can't move. Then the cantrip casters unload on it without any danger whatsoever, while the creature has to use its action to escape the grapple or try to kill the grappler fast enough that it matters.

You could tailor an interesting encounter. But as written, any marginally optimized party will take out an immune creature like a werewolf with relatively ease. In my experience, resistant creatures either overwhelm a party that can't deal with them ending a campaign or are too easy to kill with very little in-between. It takes a carefully crafted monster to create the werewolf experience.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

. . . Or more than one.

 

[CapnZapp]

I simply don't see parties having any problems.

Sure, you can have a party with no cantrips and no magical weapons. But how many parties (of, say, level 5 or more) like that really exist?

Do note: I'm talking about groups running either official modules or DMs using the treasure tables of the DMG. What you do in your own private homebrew campaign is your business: WotC does not get to claim credit for what YOU accomplish.

Its such a lie. WotC shan't get away with both eating the cake and keeping it too. Resistances and immunities used to be a reasonably big deal in 3E, but not in this edition.

Either the game makes resistant/immune creatures truly fearsome and then it does not make magical weapons and energy damage readily available in random loot tables or in official modules.

Or the other way round: players get to play with cool weapons and Firebolt and Eldritch Blast already at low levels, but resistance/immunity to non-magical attacks is a minor footnote that only applies to Commoners and greenhorn lowest-levelled adventurers.

WotC doesn't get to have both.

TL;DR: We should not discuss resistances/immunities as if they matter when they really don't.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Magic weapon is a level 2 spell available to anyone using the wizard list or paladins. A wizard casting it on a fighter or barbarian gets a lot of bang for his/her buck (and it is a bonus action spell, so the wizard can still cantrip the werewolf on the same turn). It is particularly good when running into fiends who often have advantage against magic: zapping the bearded devil may not work, but if I zap the barbarian's sword, the devil doesn't have any particular defense anymore. No magic mart needed.

I know, I know, cool kids don't waste spells on other PC's.....on the other hand, bad decisions by players are a DM's best friend.

 

[guachi]

Add "immune/resistant to damage from cantrips" and you'd really scare low level players. I don't think it be out of character to have a lycanthrope immune (or resistant) to such common types of magic if it's also immune to common types of weapons.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I simply don't see parties having any problems.

Sure, you can have a party with no cantrips and no magical weapons. But how many parties (of, say, level 5 or more) like that really exist?

Yep. 5th level is around the point where a party is likely to start having a magical weapon amongst them - although likely not something optimal. Its also when the average damage of a cantrip goes from 5ish to 10ish points of damage a round. This is borne out by non-weapon-using fighting types like Monks and Moon Druids getting magical attacks around this level as well.

By level 10, the party probably has enough options that facing something requiring magic probably won't require much change of normal tactics.

So it does indeed look like magic-immune opposition are only going to be a big problem for the first half or so of the average adventurer's career. I don't think that anyone was expecting it to be an issue for high-level parties.

Do note: I'm talking about groups running either official modules or DMs using the treasure tables of the DMG. What you do in your own private homebrew campaign is your business: WotC does not get to claim credit for what YOU accomplish.

Its such a lie. WotC shan't get away with both eating the cake and keeping it too. Resistances and immunities used to be a reasonably big deal in 3E, but not in this edition.

Either the game makes resistant/immune creatures truly fearsome and then it does not make magical weapons and energy damage readily available in random loot tables or in official modules.

Or the other way round: players get to play with cool weapons and Firebolt and Eldritch Blast already at low levels, but resistance/immunity to non-magical attacks is a minor footnote that only applies to Commoners and greenhorn lowest-levelled adventurers.

WotC doesn't get to have both.

TL;DR: We should not discuss resistances/immunities as if they matter when they really don't.

They do matter: they are a reasonably big deal. As shown, until a party levels up a tier or so, running into an encounter of creatures with non-magical weapon immunity is going to be trouble. (Energy resistances/immunities are a separate issue that tends to pop up in the latter part of a party's career.)

Now, if you want something that a high-level party isn't going to be able to hurt, then you will indeed be disappointed: by its very nature, a high-level party are going to have a lot of options. But at that point, the caster's ability to slowly plink something to death with cantrips is not the problem.

Add "immune/resistant to damage from cantrips" and you'd really scare low level players. I don't think it be out of character to have a lycanthrope immune (or resistant) to such common types of magic if it's also immune to common types of weapons.

Depends whether the intent is to give the party a trickier fight through having to use different tactics, non-optimal weapons and supporting actions to the party members who can damage them, or whether the intent is to actually have something that the party flat out can't hurt. If burning oil works, but Firebolt or Chill Touch don't, the party are going to wonder what is going on - particularly if they are trying to light the oil using the Firebolt.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

On the flip side, a fight where the fighters are trying to pin down a werewolf with shoves and grapples rather than attacks, so that the spellcasters can cantrip spam it to death could be pretty cool.

This exact scene happened in my campaign, however it was chains they were using to pin it, because they didn't want to kill the afflicted person. It was pretty fun.

Yes. However 5E makes it a little bit too easy because alternative, non-creative methods (especially cantrips) are so readily-available. Most parties will probably never need to use flaming oil or poisonous snakes or drowning to kill a jackalwere, which is a pity.

This is definitely what I saw in that scene. The party was 1st level too. And the round after they disabled the werewolf--another one came out of the door and they had to do it all over again. Now, they did have unusually high ability scores and a 3rd level cleric with them. If they had had to fight both at the same time, they may have been in trouble.

They did spend some time trying to plan out how to get silvered weaponry to bring into the battle they were expecting...but in the end didn't need it (which is good because they didn't have any).

But as it was, two characters with cantrips made a big difference. One character did contract lycanthropy though, so it wasn't a consequence free battle.

 

[CapnZapp]

So it does indeed look like magic-immune opposition are only going to be a big problem for the first half or so of the average adventurer's career. I don't think that anyone was expecting it to be an issue for high-level parties.

No, that's not at all what I'm saying.

I'm saying that for the most part creatures with resistances and immunities used to be a real concern, but is not that anymore. Sure there can be the odd exception, but mostly, you will have gotten the tools you need by the time you face that kind of monster.

Time and time again I read about a monster's resistance to magic weapons, or somesuch, but not even once has this actually shut down the party, forcing them into changing their tactics.

Sure, it has meant a fighter have had to use another weapon than his favorite, but... meh.

The thresholds are simply set so low, that most parties will fulfill them just by regular adventuring, with no need to take detours, performs quests or make sacrifices in any way.

This should be obvious for everybody to see. There is only a single "level" of better gear to find. Either you have a non-magical weapon or you have a magical weapon. (Sure silver and adamantine are sometimes mentioned, but without any real practical impact, since any old +1 weapon does just as well)

Needing a +2 or +3 weapon? Gone!
Needing an anarchic or axiomatic weapon? Gone!
Needing a cold iron or adamantine weapon (with no substitutions)? Gone!

Magical energy based attacks are given to every first level spellcaster. And they're unlimited in all regards! Even fighters and rogues can have them (either by feat or subclass).




I see it as part of a definite trend to make D&D... easier, for want of a better word. Very much easier. In order to make D&D run like it used to, you need to tweak everything yourself. Not one of these obstacles will ever be felt by a party running official modules, assuming baseline competency in creating a flexible party that covers the necessary bases.



Look, I'm certainly not advocating for a return to the bad old days where a monster could resist 40 points of every attack unless your caddie pulls out the right club for the job. But it definitely seems like WotC thinks us gamers don't like setbacks and problems and being denied stuff, because this edition is ridiculously easy to beat.

(You know and I know I can throw a dozen Balor at a level 2 party. This isn't about that. This is about the default difficulty dial being turned down a notch or two compared to every other edition I know of, in every damn area. It's a significant and profound change that shouldn't be hidden behind conciliatory language)