D&D 5E [5E] The few mechanical implications of... non-magical weapon immunity and CR.

No, that's not at all what I'm saying.

I'm saying that for the most part creatures with resistances and immunities used to be a real concern, but is not that anymore. Sure there can be the odd exception, but mostly, you will have gotten the tools you need by the time you face that kind of monster.

Time and time again I read about a monster's resistance to magic weapons, or somesuch, but not even once has this actually shut down the party, forcing them into changing their tactics.
That certainly isn't my experience. We've just finished the Curse of Strahd AP, and we had to spend effort to ensure that we were able to fight some of the more resistant gribblies in there, even if it was just extra spell slots to enchant weapons. - We only started to find magical weapons at higher level - after we had encountered werewolves and vampire spawn.

I would, however, make a distinction between shutting down the party and simply forcing a change of tactics/making things harder.

Sure, it has meant a fighter have had to use another weapon than his favorite, but... meh.

The thresholds are simply set so low, that most parties will fulfill them just by regular adventuring, with no need to take detours, performs quests or make sacrifices in any way.

This should be obvious for everybody to see. There is only a single "level" of better gear to find. Either you have a non-magical weapon or you have a magical weapon. (Sure silver and adamantine are sometimes mentioned, but without any real practical impact, since any old +1 weapon does just as well)
As mentioned, it hasn't been obvious in my experience. We had to go after specific weapons, and even obtaining some silver arrows required work.

Needing a +2 or +3 weapon? Gone!
Needing an anarchic or axiomatic weapon? Gone!
Needing a cold iron or adamantine weapon (with no substitutions)? Gone!

Magical energy based attacks are given to every first level spellcaster. And they're unlimited in all regards! Even fighters and rogues can have them (either by feat or subclass).
But those magical energy attacks both require expenditure of a resource that could be spent elsewhere and are considerably less powerful than the physical attacks of the fighters and rogues. Against a merely resistant foe, those physical attacks would probably still be more effective.
That magical energy attack comes at a cost and so should have a reward in those situations where it is relevant.

The book of supplementary rules coming out might have details about cold iron and adamantine weapons etc; how to obtain them and which monster resistances should be adjusted if those rules are being used. Its probably a good idea not to introduce a threat that requires a specific material or property to overcome before you introduce that material or property into the game.

If you don't like the "binary" nature of the default system, you could always just adjust the monster stats - perhaps making some higher CR creatures with immunities now also resistant against weapons of only +1. Just bear in mind that a +3 weapon is a legendary item of which even a high-level party may only have one. Or none.

I see it as part of a definite trend to make D&D... easier, for want of a better word. Very much easier. In order to make D&D run like it used to, you need to tweak everything yourself. Not one of these obstacles will ever be felt by a party running official modules, assuming baseline competency in creating a flexible party that covers the necessary bases.
Well, gee. Where would you draw the baseline of competency then?

Look, I'm certainly not advocating for a return to the bad old days where a monster could resist 40 points of every attack unless your caddie pulls out the right club for the job. But it definitely seems like WotC thinks us gamers don't like setbacks and problems and being denied stuff, because this edition is ridiculously easy to beat.

(You know and I know I can throw a dozen Balor at a level 2 party. This isn't about that. This is about the default difficulty dial being turned down a notch or two compared to every other edition I know of, in every damn area. It's a significant and profound change that shouldn't be hidden behind conciliatory language)
I believe that 5e's ethos when it comes to immunities and resistances is to make things merely harder, not impossible. There is little "You must have X to succeed" gating. If a DM wants to make a creature immune to the party until the correct McGuffin has been found, or ritual has been performed, they can just do that by fiat.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
I believe that 5e's ethos when it comes to immunities and resistances is to make things merely harder, not impossible. There is little "You must have X to succeed" gating.
I believe so too. I have never said otherwise. On the contrary, I believe I even specifically said how bad the first damage resistance system (back in 3.0) was: a damage reduction of DR 40/+4 was effectively exactly that kind of bad gating.

If you don't like the "binary" nature of the default system, you could always just adjust the monster stats
Sorry for my exasperation, but for the umpteenth time: no matter what I do I cannot "adjust" the default system.

The fact we can all houserule anything and change everything is a very poor argument against not liking something with the default system.

I can choose not to use the default system, but if the default system isn't to my liking, it will remain not to my liking until it is officially changed.

Why is it that one can't criticise the official rules without somebody always telling me I can change it for my home game?!? Why can't we have a discussion about the official rules, and how we might or might not want to change them?
 

I believe so too. I have never said otherwise. On the contrary, I believe I even specifically said how bad the first damage resistance system (back in 3.0) was: a damage reduction of DR 40/+4 was effectively exactly that kind of bad gating.
I was also including earlier editions - which had systems where creatures could be flat-out immune to weapons below a certain level of enchantment and spells of a certain level.
3.0's systems, where there was generally at least a chance of punching some damage through if you dealt enough and spell resistance could be beaten was at least less strict.

5.0 seems to a mix of the two, with more flat immunities, but which are easier to bypass. Resistance rather than DR is presumably to allow better scaling.

Sorry for my exasperation, but for the umpteenth time: no matter what I do I cannot "adjust" the default system.

The fact we can all houserule anything and change everything is a very poor argument against not liking something with the default system.

I can choose not to use the default system, but if the default system isn't to my liking, it will remain not to my liking until it is officially changed.

Why is it that one can't criticise the official rules without somebody always telling me I can change it for my home game?!? Why can't we have a discussion about the official rules, and how we might or might not want to change them?
I'm not telling you what to do. I'm offering a suggestion to relieve an issue that is obviously causing you distress.

I fully accept that you don't like something about the default system: - As is your right to do so. Hence why I suggested something that I thought you would like.

The fact we can all houserule anything and change everything is not an argument against not liking something, its a solution to it.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I'm not telling you what to do. I'm offering a suggestion to relieve an issue that is obviously causing you distress.

I fully accept that you don't like something about the default system: - As is your right to do so. Hence why I suggested something that I thought you would like.

The fact we can all houserule anything and change everything is not an argument against not liking something, its a solution to it.
The problem is that a problem with a solution is percieved as being not too bad, even if the solution doesn't help me.

I don't want to be told I can solve things myself. Not only does that nothing for the official rules, it also means the discussion can end: "there, a solution, problem solved".

The problem is not solved.

My problem never was "Am I allowed to change the rules in my own game?". It might appear an absurd question, but when you think about it, that is what repeating the "fact we call houserule anything" strictly is the answer to.

My problem isn't that I'm unsure if I can houserule things.

My problem is that the official rules go too easy on us. There is no solution to this problem, unless you have the psychic powers to mindcontrol MMearls for me.

So thanks but no thanks. No, telling me I can always houserule stuff is not a solution.
 

The problem is that a problem with a solution is percieved as being not too bad, even if the solution doesn't help me.

I don't want to be told I can solve things myself. Not only does that nothing for the official rules, it also means the discussion can end: "there, a solution, problem solved".

The problem is not solved.
There's no guarantee that any particular solution will be the correct one for any particular person. That houserule suggestion was completely off the top of my head without much introspection and certainly doesn't mean that discussion of the problem you're having should end. There's no reasonable reason that with a bit more outlining of the issues and more thought, we can't come up with houserules that will help you though.

My problem never was "Am I allowed to change the rules in my own game?". It might appear an absurd question, but when you think about it, that is what repeating the "fact we call houserule anything" strictly is the answer to.

My problem isn't that I'm unsure if I can houserule things.
I'm aware. Thats why I went straight to suggesting an actual houserule that might solve your problem.

My problem is that the official rules go too easy on us. There is no solution to this problem, unless you have the psychic powers to mindcontrol MMearls for me.
Probably unnecessary to go that far. You're finding that the official rules go too easy on your group. Is this as a player you're finding things a cakewalk, or as a DM where you're finding the party is handling your challenges too easily?
If you're finding things too easy as a player, your best bet is to check with the rest of the group that everyone else feels the same way, and then have a chat to your DM. If you're the DM, well, there is a good chance that adjusting encounters to take into account your party's capabilities is an official rule.

So thanks but no thanks. No, telling me I can always houserule stuff is not a solution.
Well, as you say, thems the rules. As far as I'm aware if they are a problem you have two options: (1) Use them. (2) Don't use them.

So: What do you intend to do about your problem?
 

Gadget

Adventurer
Hmmm... I was under the impression that the designers were intending to leave the level of magic items in the campaign up to the individual groups/DMs this time around. Sure they have some random treasure tables, and they have loot in published modules, they have to have something in there after all. But I also see that it seems that every other sub-class and its brother has some sort of your-weapon/attack counts as magical ability about 5th or 6th level, so that makes it a touch more difficult to run a magic item rare campaign.

I certainly don't want to return to the days of the golf bag syndrome though, so maybe I'll add in a bit more of the immune to normal weapons and resistant to magical weapons traits.
 

Harzel

Adventurer
My problem is that the official rules go too easy on us. There is no solution to this problem, unless you have the psychic powers to mindcontrol MMearls for me.

Well, I gave you XP for honesty. But this sounds like an admission that you are posting just to kvetch. Am I missing, somehow, the point of discussing a problem to which "there is no solution"?
 

Amatiel

Explorer
Since 5e came out, my campaigns have all been set in Eberron. My players and I all like the setting, and i've established a high magic level for low to mid-level items. Its no big deal to grab the train into Sharn, hit a shop in the plaza, and buy an alchemical silver rapier of quickdraw, assuming you have the funds. I also changed the number of allowed attuned items to a characters proficiency modifer.
So, given that, I made the following changes to magical items and creature resistance. All creatures that require magical weapons to cause damage now have immunity to nonmagical weapons. You either need a magical weapon to cause damage or you don't. Got rid of resistance. Also, for example, a lycanthrope says - requires magical or silver weapon. If you have either a magical OR a silver weapon, the creature has resistance. If you have a magical weapon that is also silver - you do full damage :)
 

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