D&D 5E Challenge Rating

[MostlyDm]

I'm confused... I would normally expect a DM that has taken a party through 20 levels of 5e would probably have 5e encounter building down pretty well.

So... is this a case where you have been thrust into the role of DMing an existing party?

Or is this a case where you guys have recently updated existing characters/campaign into the 5e rules set?

 

[Balfore]

My fear is I've bitten off more than I can chew.
After this encounter (at 20), they will get a Boon, then a Sub-Boss- another Boon...
Then the BBEG at the end.
This will be a huge deal.
An evil Necromancer with 4 Simulacrum all with 9th level magic.
They will have 10 PCs, each with 2 boons.
Seems like a good start to an epic battle, no?

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[Balfore]

The next encounter is the Horseman of Death, then,
The Legendary 5th Horseman (I still need to build this guy).
Then the BBEG at the end.

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[MostlyDm]

Sounds like a good start. Give him a bunch more support.

Forget zombies, this is a super-necromancer able to maintain 4 simulacrums. Give him a pack of of 100 ghouls, or a Vampire bodyguard with a horde of vampire spawn, or the ability to call dozens of wraiths out from the tombs around the battlefield. Or all three.

10 PCs provides a huge force multiplier. He needs a bigger one, if you want the battle to be difficult.

 

[aco175]

I haven't run 20th level yet for 5e, and do not have 10PCs at all, but my experience so far with 5e is that things start to break down at higher levels and the scaling does not work as well. I found that you can throw more than you think at the party and not kill them they way you think you will.

Check the "to hit" value of the monsters to the party AC levels. If CR 11 monsters have +8 to hit and the PCs have 20+AC, you can throw more monsters at them since you will not hit as much. I have 9th level PCs and just threw some goblins at them and it was a mid to tough fight. I had over 40 goblins and 5 PCs with most of the goblins needing to roll between 15-19 to hit the PCs. A fireball took out 10-12 at the start and the fighter was chopping 2 per round. I would guess 20th level PCs couldn't kill the CR11 monsters in one round by themselves, but with 10PCs I would expect 2 of them to fall each round.

I like to have encounters with 1 powerful monster and a few mid level monsters and maybe a few pest monsters. For the 10 PCs at level20 I would throw 2-18CR monsters with 6-11CR, and 15 to 20- 5CR. This should be a tough fight with lots going on, but I wouldn't worry too much.

 

[Sunseeker]

How do you determine higher challenges with larger groups?

If you have a CR 11, and 10 PCs @ level 20.
How many CR 11s do you need?
Or, how many CR 11s with extra mobs of lesser CR?

Or, just rank up the CR 11, and add another one?

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10 level 20 PCs, how many foes would I need in order to challenge them? 5-8 waves of Ancient Dragons or Solars, 8-12 per wave. This is of course, assuming these PCs are 1-20 in a single class and are say, two typical parties (two defenders, two healers, 4 damagers, 2 mixed-use). Usually I like to fight my players "one-to-one" at higher levels with monsters otherwise the monsters are seriously lacking in turns to make the fight meaningful.

For your averagely built 5-man party at level 20, I'd usually throw 3-5 monsters of equal CR at the party twice. The XP is insane, but that's why I stopped using it. When a smart party can take on monsters twice their CR, something is off. Any smart party can "punch up", but in 5E it's just way too easy.

 

[Balfore]

I'm confused... I would normally expect a DM that has taken a party through 20 levels of 5e would probably have 5e encounter building down pretty well.

So... is this a case where you have been thrust into the role of DMing an existing party?

Or is this a case where you guys have recently updated existing characters/campaign into the 5e rules set?

5 are pre-existing
5 have gone thru PotA (a grueling campaign for a first time DM)

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[Balfore]

Sounds like a good start. Give him a bunch more support.

Forget zombies, this is a super-necromancer able to maintain 4 simulacrums. Give him a pack of of 100 ghouls, or a Vampire bodyguard with a horde of vampire spawn, or the ability to call dozens of wraiths out from the tombs around the battlefield. Or all three.

10 PCs provides a huge force multiplier. He needs a bigger one, if you want the battle to be difficult.

The BBEG has had hundreds of years to prepare in his ice castle.
I planned on having a sea of undead surrounding the castle, (bit another NPC will show up in an airship at some point and drop a devastation orb designed to destroy undead, and it will open the way to the castle (but they won't know that initially ).

They they can fight their way thru to the castle.

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[Balfore]

10 level 20 PCs, how many foes would I need in order to challenge them? 5-8 waves of Ancient Dragons or Solars, 8-12 per wave. This is of course, assuming these PCs are 1-20 in a single class and are say, two typical parties (two defenders, two healers, 4 damagers, 2 mixed-use). Usually I like to fight my players "one-to-one" at higher levels with monsters otherwise the monsters are seriously lacking in turns to make the fight meaningful.

For your averagely built 5-man party at level 20, I'd usually throw 3-5 monsters of equal CR at the party twice. The XP is insane, but that's why I stopped using it. When a smart party can take on monsters twice their CR, something is off. Any smart party can "punch up", but in 5E it's just way too easy.

It's a crazy mix of damage and foresight:
1 warlock
1 arcane trickster
2 diviners
1 eldrich knight
1 arcane ranger
1 war cleric
1 life cleric (maybe)
3 fighters


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[Shiroiken]

If I was using CR 11 creatures against a party of 10 experienced 20th level PCs, I'd probably use about 50-100 to make it a tough fight. This may seem nuts, but area of effect spells will generally devastate the enemy and unless you build an optimized encounter location, only a dozen or so of them will actually get to attack (unless they have a ranged attack, then I'd use about 30-60).

If you are concerned about it, I'd suggest starting off with about 20 with the ability to send in additional waves of 10-20 each. This should keep the party busy, expend quite a few spell slots and HP, while giving you control on how tough the fight really is. Once the party seems like they're about to win, you send in another wave. Once it looks like they've spent a lot of resources, you stop. Should you decide to do this DON'T TELL YOUR PLAYERS!!! This will take away the enjoyment for many players if they know that a fight had a controlled element.