D&D 5E Whatever "lore" is, it isn't "rules."

[Hriston]

Actually, there'd be 13, since IAU recognizes five dwarf planets.

Wait...13? Holy crap, Earth is an alt-Eberron!

I think you might have forgotten 2007 OR10, which brings the total to 14.

 

[Maxperson]

Actually, there'd be 13, since IAU recognizes five dwarf planets.

Wait...13? Holy crap, Earth is an alt-Eberron!

LOL

 

[TwoSix]

I think you might have forgotten 2007 OR10, which brings the total to 14.

Sure, 2007 OR10 is almost definitely a dwarf planet, IAU just hasn't officially named it yet and labeled it as such.

Hmm, if Earth is Eberron, then the other planets + 2007 OR10 could be the 12+1. I like this theory!

 

[Hriston]

The discussion was about a DM making a change not about a published change...

And yet you cast doubt on the nonexistence of a hypothetical sentence that you hope to find in some edition's material on Greyhawk. My question is what difference it would make if that sentence exists. We already know what "canon" says about the moons in the folio, which doesn't contradict the details of [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s game. Additional canon that ends up contradicting the details of his game wouldn't mean that his game isn't in accord with the setting's canon, because it already is.

 

[Imaro]

And yet you cast doubt on the nonexistence of a hypothetical sentence that you hope to find in some edition's material on Greyhawk. My question is what difference it would make if that sentence exists. We already know what "canon" says about the moons in the folio, which doesn't contradict the details of @pemerton's game. Additional canon that ends up contradicting the details of his game wouldn't mean that his game isn't in accord with the setting's canon, because it already is.

What's your point... If that sentence exists then no, 3 moons in Greyhawk is not canon... it's pretty simple, especially since we know it's never been stated that 3 moons exist. Or are you now saying anything in anyone's game they create is canon? If so... again the word becomes meaningless... if not... well again, what's your point?

EDIT: And for the record no... we don't know what's in the folio since no one has actually posted what is written regarding Oerth's moons...

 

[Campbell]

I dont think that it is guaranteed for a DM to accept that Expedition to the Barrier Peaks is actually official Greyhawk canon since it departs from the tropes that they may be using in their game.

At best it could be considered a meta adventure if you were to include it at all.

I was the one who brought setting tropes into this thread, but I did not mean to make that into a legitimacy issue. I mean coming into any game we all are going to bring our own expectations. Like if someone said they were running an Ebberon game I would expect a healthy dose of pulp and noir elements to be included, and I would not expect to be doing much crawling around in dungeons. If the game in question was mostly dungeon crawling there would be a mismatch in expectations, but I am not really comfortable in saying it's not an Ebberon game when it is to the people playing that game.

I don't think it makes sense to tell people that they are not doing what they think they are doing. I do think it makes sense to have a 10-15 minute conversation about a game before committing to it. Hell, I can't imagine signing up to play without talking out things like character concepts, play style issues, etc. I almost always will meet people who show interest in gaming at a local bar, have a couple brews, talk about gaming stuff, and make sure we're socially compatible. I can't imagine this ever being an issue with real people in real social situations.

 

[Shasarak]

I was the one who brought setting tropes into this thread, but I did not mean to make that into a legitimacy issue. I mean coming into any game we all are going to bring our own expectations. Like if someone said they were running an Ebberon game I would expect a healthy dose of pulp and noir elements to be included, and I would not expect to be doing much crawling around in dungeons. If the game in question was mostly dungeon crawling there would be a mismatch in expectations, but I am not really comfortable in saying it's not an Ebberon game when it is to the people playing that game.

I don't think it makes sense to tell people that they are not doing what they think they are doing. I do think it makes sense to have a 10-15 minute conversation about a game before committing to it. Hell, I can't imagine signing up to play without talking out things like character concepts, play style issues, etc. I almost always will meet people who show interest in gaming at a local bar, have a couple brews, talk about gaming stuff, and make sure we're socially compatible. I can't imagine this ever being an issue with real people in real social situations.

On the other hand it is not just you. There are other people that just do not like mixing sci-fi with their fantasy. Look at all the hand wringing that Mearls is doing about trying to change the "Psionicist" into a "Mystic".

Expedition is one of those things that just turn some people off. So is it Greyhawk? As [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] said it was written by Gygax pretty early in the Greyhawks history. But maybe it was just something that leaked through from the Berenstein Universe.

 

[Campbell]

On the other hand it is not just you. There are other people that just do not like mixing sci-fi with their fantasy. Look at all the hand wringing that Mearls is doing about trying to change the "Psionicist" into a "Mystic".

Expedition is one of those things that just turn some people off. So is it Greyhawk? As [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] said it was written by Gygax pretty early in the Greyhawks history. But maybe it was just something that leaked through from the Berenstein Universe.

It's complicated. It is certainly consistent with the sort of material Gygax ran with in the Greyhawk Campaign. Murlynd, played by long time Gygax friend, Don Kaye, carried two magical six shooters from an alternate Western world that become wands when he returned to Oerth. Rob Kuntz also designed a machine level for Castle Greyhawk. On the other hand Expedition to Barrier Peaks was originally a tie-in tournament adventure designed to sell Metamorphosis Alpha. On the other hand, the draw of Greyhawk to a number of fans was the general Swords and Sorcery vibe of the Flaeness.

In general, what counts as Real Greyhawk is awfully contentious. Gygax was not a fan of what TSR did with his world after they parted ways. He even destroyed Oerth in Dance of the Demons, his final Gord the Rogue novel. Greyhawk has also gained and lost gods multiple times. Forex. In the December 1984 issue of Dragon Gygax officially added the demihuman and monstrous humanoid dieties published in Dragon were now Greyhawk Gods. 24 new gods overnight. That's without getting into the changes TSR made to the Circle of Eight, The Greyhawk Wars, the re-imagining of Castle Greyhawk and The Free City of Greyhawk, Rob Kuntz's issues with later portrayals of his PC, Robilar, etc. Greyhawk canon is a mess.

I have used pieces of Greyhawk in the past homebrews, mostly the Paizohawk material cutting out Planescape ideas I didn't like, but I have never really ran a Greyhawk game. I've played in some - there is a pretty strong AD&D contingent out here. Opinions vary.

 

[Campbell]

I think one of the core strengths of 1e era Greyhawk was that you did not have a real polished campaign setting. You had maps, low resolution regional descriptions, and adventures that had no canonical resolution. It was really easy to make the material your own in a way that was never really possible culturally with the other settings.

For the type of play that I enjoy I cannot stress the importance of low resolution setting material enough. The layer upon layer of additions becomes unwieldy over time, making it difficult to carve out a play space. It's why I still used the lore for Exalted 1e, over the mess of explaining everything that 2e became.

 

[Hriston]

What's your point... If that sentence exists then no, 3 moons in Greyhawk is not canon... it's pretty simple, especially since we know it's never been stated that 3 moons exist. Or are you now saying anything in anyone's game they create is canon? If so... again the word becomes meaningless... if not... well again, what's your point?

Well, my point certainly isn't that the details of someone's game somehow become part of the setting's canon in the sense that they become part of someone else's shared fiction by virtue of their using the same setting.

My point is that three moons is compatible with the setting canon represented by the folio and boxed set. That someone later writes something about Oerth's moons that becomes part of canon and contradicts three moons would in no way diminish three moons' compatibility with the original canon.

EDIT: And for the record no... we don't know what's in the folio since no one has actually posted what is written regarding Oerth's moons...

When I said we already know what canon represented by the folio says about the moons, I meant that any canon about the moons added subsequently needn't have the effect of making folio canon incompatible with something with which it was formerly compatible.