Speculation about "the feelz" of D&D 4th Edition

I didn't mean efficacy, though, just how interesting the iterations have been. also, I have very little memory of adnd, at this point.
I was thinking interesting as well as useful, but, y'know, not being taken completely out of an encounter by a failed save does leave you more interesting things to do. ;)

And, yes, if you don't recall how bad the fighter had it in AD&D, I suppose the 5e fighter could look like the worst of the modern lot, though it still has things to recommend it. Not so much in the sense that they're enough to make it the equal of 3e or 4e fighters, but in the sense it has a few things that'd've been 'nice to have' for them, too.
 

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I think the bolded text is a big area of confusion:
That there is a default DC chart has nothing to do with the difficulty of a particular task. Simply that if a DM is going to put something in the way of the players at level X, it ought to have a DC of at least X. And if it is below that, it probably isn't worth mentioning as part of a skill check.

As an example, a group of 30th level PCs run into a series of DC 17 iron shod doors with lots of verisimilitude. The minimum DC for easy is DC 24. This doesn't mean they can't run into the doors. It just means that simply doesn't count for purpose of the skill challenge. A common mistake that people would make is that they'd take the exact same iron shod door and make it different DCs - and because LFR mods were set for different levels of PCs, they'd need to do that simply from a structure the skill challenge PoV.

And the early mods should have come with warning text saying, "Hey, just be aware, here's why the DCs change." but didn't.
This is a good post from a general consumption and clarity perspective (certainly as a parry to shallow edition war talking points).

However, [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] is certainly aware of the above.
Well, I don't really know what is going on with the reference to LFR - are they examples of poor DC-setting, or of good DC-setting, or perhaps of good DC-setting that can look like poor DC-setting if you don't pay attention to some broader context?

But I've always treated the 4e DC-by-level chart as playing the same sort of role as the difficulty progression chat in HeroQuest revised (which came out in mid-2009). The mechanics work most smoothly - in terms of difficulty, and resultant pacing and pressure on the players - if the GM uses the DC-by-level chart; and it is the GM's job to make sure that the narration fits the difficulty, and (as part of that) to ensure coherence in narration.

A key thing (I think) in using "subjective" DCs is to abandon the question "But what is the real DC?" That's a question that makes sense for Rolemaster, or Classic Traveller, or Burning Wheel; but not for HQ revised, and in my view not for 4e either.

One consequence of this is that at your table the iron-shod doors might be DC 17; and at mine DC 20. At your table frost giants might be AC 30 (brutes of around 17th level) and at my table AC 37 (brutes of mid epic level). Yet, in the fiction, there is no concrete element (eg tougher armour, bigger shields) that explains that difference.

Each table generates its own fiction, and its own particular thematic vibe, and there is no guarantee or expectation of replication from table to table, or even at the same table when the game is replayed. Nor can one point to DCs to generate counterfactuals - because the DCs aren't the cause of the background fictional context, but a consequence of it - and their function is simply to generate actual results in actual play, not to provide a basis for counterfactual projection as if they were the "physical laws" of the gameworld.

(WotC recognised, and exploited, this feature of the system in publishing the Neverwinter Campaign book, which is mechanically heroic tier but thematically extends through what is, in the defaulot game, paragon stuff. This has caused no end of confusion in discussions of 4e with posters who don't seem to grasp the way that subjective DCs work.)
 

Also, on the topic of threatening reach you and [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] are discussing: Polearm Gamble is, in effect, threatening reach against closing creatures. Given that a fighter's OAs stop movement, it is (in my experience) extremely effective, as it allows damage to be inflicted and stops the enemy inflicting damage for one turn. In practical terms it comes close to an at-will stun against enemies who lack their own reach.

At the point in time where you can get Polearm Gamble is also the time where most creatures either have reach 2, have ranged attacks of some kind, or have special movement that doesn't provoke OAs, such as shift X, mobile melee attack, or teleport.

And in that context, I'm more interested in Flail Expertise/Lashing Flail, which has literally no prereqs in stats other than being a martial class of some kind. And an Alhulak is a martial +3 proficiency weapon that allows heavy shield use...
 

A key thing (I think) in using "subjective" DCs is to abandon the question "But what is the real DC?" That's a question that makes sense for Rolemaster, or Classic Traveller, or Burning Wheel; but not for HQ revised, and in my view not for 4e either.

One consequence of this is that at your table the iron-shod doors might be DC 17; and at mine DC 20. At your table frost giants might be AC 30 (brutes of around 17th level) and at my table AC 37 (brutes of mid epic level). Yet, in the fiction, there is no concrete element (eg tougher armour, bigger shields) that explains that difference.
The explanation for the difference is simple: different games, different DMs, different idea of what an iron shod door or frost giant is/means. The DC of 20 for that iron-shod door (what kinda door wears iron shoes, anyway, that is not exactly stylish, even by door standards?) is only 'subjective' in the negative sense h4ters used if it changes, at your table, for that same door. Otherwise, it's a non-issue.

(WotC recognised, and exploited, this feature of the system in publishing the Neverwinter Campaign book, which is mechanically heroic tier but thematically extends through what is, in the defaulot game, paragon stuff. This has caused no end of confusion in discussions of 4e with posters who don't seem to grasp the way that subjective DCs work.)
Again, nothing to do with DC's being subjective or objective, but with Mearls being unable to grok the very game he was responsible for. Paragon themes at heroic tier? Sloppy. Sabotages the Paragon experience.

I mean, in a way it's one of the things that points at Essentials as designed to have a short run.
 

Genre emulation can go a lot of different ways, depending on your source material. The whole "Appendix N" fetish, silly as it can get, sheds a lot of light on OD&D/1E design decisions: though DCC RPG is the best I've seen at genre emulation.
The three Appendix N authors whose works I know well enough to comment are JRRT, REH and HPL. And for what it's worth, I don't think classi D&D (original, Moldvay Basic, Gygax's AD&D) does a particularly good job of emulating them.

I think the non-emulation of JRRT - in terms of magic, motivation, etc - is sufficiently evident that I'll not elaborate. The non-emuation of HPL is also pretty commonly remarked upon (eg "magic"-use doesn't drive you mad; eldrithc horrors are often rather easily defeated, and often are not a source of terror; etc).

But I also think the system doesn't do very well at emulating REH. One reason is that powerful fighters aren't powerful enough relative to powerful wizards, who carry over too much of their Chainmail artillery-substitute baggage, rather than the sort of "alchemy and rituals" stuff that is seen in REH's wizards.

But a second, and more serious, is that the REH Conan stories are all about a protagnist who acts spontaneously, takes risks, and is largely indifferent to whether or not those risks pay off (eg in The Tower of the Elephant, or The Jewels of Gwahlur, the treasure is lost but Conan is satisfied that he has done the right thing). Whereas classic D&D play - the underpinnings of which are set out clearly by Gygax in the closing pages (prior to the Appendices) of his PHB - is all about cautious preparation, minimising risks, and ensuring that the treasure is collected and carted out down to the last copper piece.

If I wanted AD&D to emulate REH's Conan at a minimum I would need to radically change the XP/advancement rules, and give the players some sort of "fate point" or similar mechanic that they can use to trigger an advantageous chance encounter (such as happens with the dungeon guard and then Pelias in The Scarlet Citadel, with the hillfolk in People of the Black Circle, with the witch in Hour of the Dragon, with Epemitreus in The Phoneix on the Sword, etc).

Balance in terms of contributing is also on the DM; reliance on a good DM is, for me, the core strength and heart of TTRPGing
I don't think anyone seriouisly disputes the importance of the GM to RPGing.

But that doesn't settle the question of what the GM's function is.

Consider the examples I gave from Conan - of course, the GM could just throw in a chance encounter with a Witch, or a dungeon guard who wants to slay Conan out of revenge and therefore (inadvertantly) provides him with the means of escape. But for some RPGers - including me - that is not all that satisfying: first the GM sets up an encounter in which the consequence is that the PC loses (eg ending up in prison), and then the GM hands the player the means of undoing that adverse consequence. This makes the player seem essentially like s/he is just along for the (GM's) ride.

Whereas if the player has the mechanical werewithal to trigger the encounter (by using some player-side resource or capability, like a BW Circles check), then it is the player's choices (both in build and in play) that drive things. And the GM is just as apt to be surprised by the upshot as the players are.

Of any edition of D&D, 4e does the best job of facilitating that particular sort of play dynamic, as it has the most robust tools for allowing the GM to frame challenges which s//he knows the players have the resources and capability to meaningfully engage, and for allowing the players to engage those challenges in a way where it is their choices (both fiction-oriented and mechaincs-oriented choices) that will determine the shape and content of the resulting ingame events.

Which then takes me to . . .

"Balance" and "reliability" are fairly vague in this context: results on any edition can be charted for probability, so they are "reliable" in that sense
The results of an action declaration "I sprint as hard as I can to head off the goblins" can't be charted for reliability in AD&D, because there is no mechanical system to resolve it.

For the player of the fighter in my 4e game, on the other hand, it's reliability is very knowable - if he has Might Sprint unused, and uses it, then he'll make it; othewise probably not.

Even within the context of improv mechanics, 4e is also more reliable because of its DC-by-level and Damage-by-level charts. It's easy to call for a Medium Athletics check, for instance, to move an extra square, and to tax the character a level-appropriate amount of damage if the check doesn't hit the Hard DC threshold.

This player-side reliability; and GM-side ease of framing situations that engage the players both thematicallly and mechanically but leave the actual outcome as a result of player choice plus dice rolls; is what enables the sort of non-GM-driven play that I described above.

When you say "4e does the best job in DnD history of modeling such characters in a mechanically satisfying way" rather than "relying on player imagination to model the thematics" I feel I see the difference in our play styles and experiences, because the latter is how I prefer the game to play out, and when I was saying "tactical" perhaps "mechanically modeled in detail" is a more accurate way to describe it
I don't see 4E as having been "better" or "worse" in some sort of "objective" way at helping people pretend to be elves with friends, because you don't need "rules" for that, even.
if the mechanical fiddly bits helped y'all get into the RP aspect, awesome. But I can RP while playing Monopoly or Chess, it's a human attitude not a mechanical effect.
While playing Monopoly or chess you can say stuff, and you can project imaginative events onto the ingame situation. Monopoly lends itself better to this than chess, I think; and a CCG like M:tG, or the LotR ones (I know of the Decipher and the earlier ICE ones) even moreso.

But in none of these games does that "roleplaying" have any effect at all on resolution. It is simply colour. Change it, and the game plays the same. Don't do it, and the game plays the same.

What is distinctive about RPGing, as invented by Arneson, Gygax, and co is that - like some (but not all) wargames, the fiction actually matters to resolution; and - unlike a traditional wargame - the players engage the game through the persona of a single distinct individual.

In 4e, these two elements are very tightly integrated, because the resolution mechanics express, and establish, in an iterative fashion, the persona of the individual character. To borrow from [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s example above, we know that the character has a depth of grit and willpower that will come to the surface when the chips are down, because when the chips really are down, the player uses Strong Focus to (try and) save the day.

D&D has always had some PCs - namely, casters - who can choose abilities that express their personality (contrast the cleric who memorises Raise Dead with the one who memorises Slay Living). The game has never just had a generic "Cast spell" ability which relies upon the player to overlay some colour in order to establish what is going on in the fiction (ie its spellcasting system has never resembled its traditional combat system; contrast, say, HeroQuest revised in this resepct).

But 4e develops this system in two ways. First, it extends it to non-caster characters; so their players, too, can build up combinations of elements that help tell the story of the character. Second, by emphasising "encounter" powers, and correspondingly reducing the importance both of at-will abilities and nova-ed daily abilities, it gives much more weight to a feeling of "trying", or heroic effort, on the part of the PCs. And by increasing this sense that individual choices that are made in the course of play are also expressions of the personality of the character under pressure, I think it tightens that connection and feedback between mechanical resolution and PC persona.

Which also relates to [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]'s post upthread about 4e tending not to "stall", or have moments where no one is quite sure what the next move is. It produces a very different experience from a sense that everyone is just sitting around shooting the breeze and making some stuff up, and the game itself is not doing much more to underpin or direct that than would a game of chess or Monopoly.
 

Right. Totally agree with all of this - that post was more to clarify that specific point, because I could see the counter-post looming :)

I figured :)

I just wanna say that I really appreciate the way you have been breaking this stuff down in such a clear and organized way.

Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate being able to chat with you guys about this unbelievably underappreciated game we all enjoy with such a high signal to noise ratio.

Honestly, I'm optimistic. It is far too good to not have a resurgence at some point.

I also want to make clear that most fans of 4e didn't exactly examine the game at this level, but rather just played it and enjoyed it.

Yes, our games got even better when we finally read page 42 of the DMG, and even better still when we expanded on the rules there to include improvisation using your existing powers, but just changing some aspect of them. But the game was really fun for us even when we had too new an understanding of it to really start tweaking things. (A couple folks in our group are staunch proponents of the "don't houserules or homebrew until you know the game as written pretty well" philosophy)

But anyway, it's like the tactical thing. Yeah, 4e combat powers tend to have "tactical" elements, insofar as "tactical" can simply mean "more complex choices and consequences in combat than simple attacks and damage", but what we like about those powers isn't that they support tactical combat. It is everything you said in that other post that mentioned me, except we never examined it in those terms or that much detail. We just talk about how nice it is to know about how a given choice will go if it succeeds, how cool it is to have so many options both when building a character and leveling them, and in a given encounter (combat or not), etc. we don't even play tactically that often.

I do DM tactically, but that has been true since 2e, and has nothing to do with mechanics. I don't like the "glom onto a single target till it's dead, then move to the next" gameplay, so as a DM I discourage it by running monsters more tactically than the players are running their character, to push them to engage with the entire enemy force.

Just one quick (lol?) response that is a bit of the above and a bit of your exchange with @Parmandur. I completely understand your sense of being trolled when folks start talking about "tactical 4e". We dealt with so much "not an RPG" rubbish related to shallow understanding and/or outright malicious hit-pieces masquerading as informed and objective analysis. I get it.

That being said, I don't think folks who play 4e as actual "tactical combat linked by freeform roleplay" have anything to apologize about. Going further still, I don't think folks that run it as just a series of cinematic set-piece combats (where campy barbs are exchanged between players and between players and GM) with just a very stray interlude in a tavern, shop, or a campsite (or whatever) for mere color have anything to apologize about.

Torchbearer is a game inspired by Moldvay Basic. It is about a truly grimdark PoL setting where deadend adventurers dare to go beyond the stone walls that hold back the encroaching darkness. Maybe pull some modest treasure from the inhospitable wilds and the ruins within? Maybe return empty-handed...beaten, broken in spirit and body. It is a profound game about dealing with the fading of the light (metaphorical and literal), your nature, inevitable loss, all-too meager gains...death...and maybe heroism. The synthesis of the resolution mechanics, PC build mechanics, feedbacks, and GMing principles utterly push play inexorably toward this paradigm. You cannot play this game (or at least I can't fathom the purpose of trying) and not be emotionally provoked and invested.

However, its inspiration, Moldvay Basic is utterly capable of (and emboldened toward, actually) casual dungeon crawling where you need not be emotionally provoked nor invested (from a first-person, PC habitation, perspective) in the slightest. You can play dozens and dozens of dungeon crawls with Bob005 (your 5th "Bob the Fighter" because the first 4 died...tragically) or maybe grab your Sir Elfington the Elf001 for this dungeon? You'll explore, you'll map, you'll puzzle, you'll encounter resistance/obstacles, you'll parley, you'll run, you'll fight, you'll rest...you'll die...you'll sometimes return to home base with a nice haul. The games mechanics and procedures are beautifully coherent and facilitate this paradigm. Detached, sometimes silly, "pawn stance" play is rife. In fact, I'm not sure if I can recall too many Basic dungeon crawls that I've run that were anything but!

But Torchbearer is no more of an RPG than Moldvay Basic. Its just different. So while getting annoyed with people who try to define your RPG experience (or an RPG you enjoy) in a way to demean it or "gatekeep it out of the RPG club" is completely inevitable, natural, and to be expected (and you SHOULD push back against them HARD)...no 4e player (or pawn-stance, Monty Pythoning it up, Moldvay Basic player) has anything to apologize for, regardless of how prominent "tactical combat" is featured in their 3-4 hours per week (or whatever it might be).

Heck, I UTTERLY LOATHE metagame-averse, GM Force/Illusionism-driven games. But I'm well aware that (a) this is a very prominent form of playing D&D (post-White Wolf/Dragonlancing of AD&D 2e) and (b) that the participants (GMs that are driving the games and players who are mostly setting/metaplot tourists but do a heck of a job acting out their characterizations) are enjoying themselves (c) in the course of playing an RPG. They don't have to apologize to me and I certainly don't begrudge them either their "belonging in the RPG club" status nor their enjoyment (certainly not enough to pathologically troll/sock-puppet internet forums on multi-year campaigns of trench warfare)!
 
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At the point in time where you can get Polearm Gamble is also the time where most creatures either have reach 2, have ranged attacks of some kind, or have special movement that doesn't provoke OAs, such as shift X, mobile melee attack, or teleport.
For some value of "most". Again, that's not really been the experience at my table.
 

The three Appendix N authors whose works I know well enough to comment are JRRT, REH and HPL. And for what it's worth, I don't think classi D&D (original, Moldvay Basic, Gygax's AD&D) does a particularly good job of emulating them.

I think the non-emulation of JRRT - in terms of magic, motivation, etc - is sufficiently evident that I'll not elaborate. The non-emuation of HPL is also pretty commonly remarked upon (eg "magic"-use doesn't drive you mad; eldrithc horrors are often rather easily defeated, and often are not a source of terror; etc).

But I also think the system doesn't do very well at emulating REH. One reason is that powerful fighters aren't powerful enough relative to powerful wizards, who carry over too much of their Chainmail artillery-substitute baggage, rather than the sort of "alchemy and rituals" stuff that is seen in REH's wizards.

But a second, and more serious, is that the REH Conan stories are all about a protagnist who acts spontaneously, takes risks, and is largely indifferent to whether or not those risks pay off (eg in The Tower of the Elephant, or The Jewels of Gwahlur, the treasure is lost but Conan is satisfied that he has done the right thing). Whereas classic D&D play - the underpinnings of which are set out clearly by Gygax in the closing pages (prior to the Appendices) of his PHB - is all about cautious preparation, minimising risks, and ensuring that the treasure is collected and carted out down to the last copper piece.

If I wanted AD&D to emulate REH's Conan at a minimum I would need to radically change the XP/advancement rules, and give the players some sort of "fate point" or similar mechanic that they can use to trigger an advantageous chance encounter (such as happens with the dungeon guard and then Pelias in The Scarlet Citadel, with the hillfolk in People of the Black Circle, with the witch in Hour of the Dragon, with Epemitreus in The Phoneix on the Sword, etc).

I don't think anyone seriouisly disputes the importance of the GM to RPGing.

But that doesn't settle the question of what the GM's function is.

Consider the examples I gave from Conan - of course, the GM could just throw in a chance encounter with a Witch, or a dungeon guard who wants to slay Conan out of revenge and therefore (inadvertantly) provides him with the means of escape. But for some RPGers - including me - that is not all that satisfying: first the GM sets up an encounter in which the consequence is that the PC loses (eg ending up in prison), and then the GM hands the player the means of undoing that adverse consequence. This makes the player seem essentially like s/he is just along for the (GM's) ride.

Whereas if the player has the mechanical werewithal to trigger the encounter (by using some player-side resource or capability, like a BW Circles check), then it is the player's choices (both in build and in play) that drive things. And the GM is just as apt to be surprised by the upshot as the players are.

Of any edition of D&D, 4e does the best job of facilitating that particular sort of play dynamic, as it has the most robust tools for allowing the GM to frame challenges which s//he knows the players have the resources and capability to meaningfully engage, and for allowing the players to engage those challenges in a way where it is their choices (both fiction-oriented and mechaincs-oriented choices) that will determine the shape and content of the resulting ingame events.

Which then takes me to . . .

The results of an action declaration "I sprint as hard as I can to head off the goblins" can't be charted for reliability in AD&D, because there is no mechanical system to resolve it.

For the player of the fighter in my 4e game, on the other hand, it's reliability is very knowable - if he has Might Sprint unused, and uses it, then he'll make it; othewise probably not.

Even within the context of improv mechanics, 4e is also more reliable because of its DC-by-level and Damage-by-level charts. It's easy to call for a Medium Athletics check, for instance, to move an extra square, and to tax the character a level-appropriate amount of damage if the check doesn't hit the Hard DC threshold.

This player-side reliability; and GM-side ease of framing situations that engage the players both thematicallly and mechanically but leave the actual outcome as a result of player choice plus dice rolls; is what enables the sort of non-GM-driven play that I described above.



While playing Monopoly or chess you can say stuff, and you can project imaginative events onto the ingame situation. Monopoly lends itself better to this than chess, I think; and a CCG like M:tG, or the LotR ones (I know of the Decipher and the earlier ICE ones) even moreso.

But in none of these games does that "roleplaying" have any effect at all on resolution. It is simply colour. Change it, and the game plays the same. Don't do it, and the game plays the same.

What is distinctive about RPGing, as invented by Arneson, Gygax, and co is that - like some (but not all) wargames, the fiction actually matters to resolution; and - unlike a traditional wargame - the players engage the game through the persona of a single distinct individual.

In 4e, these two elements are very tightly integrated, because the resolution mechanics express, and establish, in an iterative fashion, the persona of the individual character. To borrow from [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s example above, we know that the character has a depth of grit and willpower that will come to the surface when the chips are down, because when the chips really are down, the player uses Strong Focus to (try and) save the day.

D&D has always had some PCs - namely, casters - who can choose abilities that express their personality (contrast the cleric who memorises Raise Dead with the one who memorises Slay Living). The game has never just had a generic "Cast spell" ability which relies upon the player to overlay some colour in order to establish what is going on in the fiction (ie its spellcasting system has never resembled its traditional combat system; contrast, say, HeroQuest revised in this resepct).

But 4e develops this system in two ways. First, it extends it to non-caster characters; so their players, too, can build up combinations of elements that help tell the story of the character. Second, by emphasising "encounter" powers, and correspondingly reducing the importance both of at-will abilities and nova-ed daily abilities, it gives much more weight to a feeling of "trying", or heroic effort, on the part of the PCs. And by increasing this sense that individual choices that are made in the course of play are also expressions of the personality of the character under pressure, I think it tightens that connection and feedback between mechanical resolution and PC persona.

Which also relates to [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]'s post upthread about 4e tending not to "stall", or have moments where no one is quite sure what the next move is. It produces a very different experience from a sense that everyone is just sitting around shooting the breeze and making some stuff up, and the game itself is not doing much more to underpin or direct that than would a game of chess or Monopoly.
Interesting that your thoughts on HPL and REH fiction do, somewhat, match the Dungeon Crawl Classics approaches on those topics (magic use is extremely risky to mind and body, Luck mechanics), which was "back to square Appendix N" for genre emulation as a mission statement.

The rest of that is very interesting in terms of what you see in 4E, thank you.

Sent from my BLU LIFE XL using EN World mobile app
 

pemerton said:
WotC recognised, and exploited, this feature of the system in publishing the Neverwinter Campaign book, which is mechanically heroic tier but thematically extends through what is, in the defaulot game, paragon stuff. This has caused no end of confusion in discussions of 4e with posters who don't seem to grasp the way that subjective DCs work.
Again, nothing to do with DC's being subjective or objective, but with Mearls being unable to grok the very game he was responsible for. Paragon themes at heroic tier? Sloppy. Sabotages the Paragon experience.
I couldn't disagree more. I think it's very clever design that deliberately exploits strong points in the system.

Dark Sun is similar but opposite - much more than default 4e, it seems to involve pushing elements of the Heroic experience (from the fiction/story point of view) into what is, mechanically, Paragon tier (and likewise pushing the story of Paragon tier into Epic).

The explanation for the difference is simple: different games, different DMs, different idea of what an iron shod door or frost giant is/means. The DC of 20 for that iron-shod door (what kinda door wears iron shoes, anyway, that is not exactly stylish, even by door standards?) is only 'subjective' in the negative sense h4ters used if it changes, at your table, for that same door. Otherwise, it's a non-issue.
It's a big issue in game design, though. And in GMing. The principles for setting a DC in 4e, or HeroQuest revised, are quite different for setting a DC in Burning Wheel or Moldvay Basic.

Burning Wheel uses other devices than DC-setting to manage pacing; Moldvay Basic, on the other hand, doesn't have any real devices for managing pacing, which means that sometimes you can enter the dungeon and just have nothing interesting happen (the wandering monster dice all come up negative, you can't open any of the doors, and your thief dies before s/he can unlock the treasure chest).

If you don't like the terminology of "subjective" vs "objective" DCs because you think it carries undue baggage, then think of it as "pacing driven" vs "infiction causation driven" DCs. Or "story now" vs "process sim" DCs.
 

If you don't like the terminology of "subjective" vs "objective" DCs because you think it carries undue baggage, then think of it as "pacing driven" vs "infiction causation driven" DCs. Or "story now" vs "process sim" DCs.
I don't like any of those. ;(

To my mind, the DC chart in 4e is just a guideline. Want to make a check 'easy' for a character of X level, pick something you think should have the corresponding Y DC.

The idea that it's 'subjective' and the DC slides with the PC's level is false & pernicious. Sure, as in 5e (and, really, any edition to use DCs) the DM is free to set DCs as he likes, just as he's free to place any monster he likes. Guideline.
 

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