D&D 5E Nerfing Great Weapon Master

[Bacon Bits]

So ... is the general thought that Disadvantage would make it too good against low AC opponents and better against high AC opponents? That it would be about equal at the medium ACs, but that's not where it's a problem?

My thought was to avoid stacking -5 to hit and Advantage. Would that not help rein it in?

Same goes for Sharp Shooter.

The problem is that means you just always use it when you have disadvantage. It's the problem of only allowing one penalty at a time and then introducing a mechanic that applies a penalty for a bonus. It means that whenever you have the penalty, you'd always use it.

The easiest change is to make the feat -5/+7. That actually makes it almost always a bad idea to use, but I'm still not a huge fan because it still says you have to do algebra at the table and it's hard to see that the math goes against you so quickly.


If I were going to leave it as intact as I possibly could, I would do this:

Before you make a melee attack with a heavy weapon that you are proficient with, you may choose to make a mighty but reckless swing. Make your attack roll as normal. However, the attack also has a 50% chance to miss unless the target is incapacitated. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage.

That adds more dice rolling (boo!) but it doesn't have problems with going off the die with bless and other attack bonuses, benefiting from advantage, etc. Sure, someone with a Blowgun is still always going to use it, but once your average damage is 10 it's actually not worth it anymore. The ability becomes a complete gamble, especially once you get bonuses to damage rolls. The math means that the worse you are at attacking, the better it is to use this ability. The more skilled you are, the less benefit you get from it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Although, to your point here, is there a 'universal fact' as to how the feat impacts DPR? Because I can't see how that's possible.

The 'universal fact' (and it's not entirely universal, it's limited to the universe of 5e D&D games that use feats) is how it works (-5/+10 &c). It can be analyzed on that basis. (And, some analyses are better than others.) That's as far as it goes, AFAICT.

What you want to do with the simple facts & analysis in hand is down to individual DM's judgement.

Awesome analysis.

Case in point. dco worked from the fact of how the feat worked, to an analysis of what impact a change to it would have. Just like analyzing it's impact on DPR. Not impossible, at all.

 

[Corwin]

Champion even with GWM gets out classes by EK or Battle Master in every game I have played...

Interesting. I too have seen all three in play and did not come to the same conclusion. The variations on perceptions and expectations sure can be fascinating.

...the extra 5% in crit does not make up the difference because the others still have 5% chance themselves to crit.

Good thing that's not all champions get, I guess?

 

[Corwin]

The 'universal fact'...

Once more, with feeling. The 'universal fact' I have been addressing specifically with the other poster, is that it is, in their eyes, a 'universal fact' that the feat is broken and needs to be changed.

 

[Horwath]

If you really don't like it just remove "power attack" part and add +1 str or GW fighting style to the feat instead.

 

[Yunru]

That actually makes it almost always a bad idea to use

Then you're doing it wrong.
A feat isn't supposed to have you spend an ASI for something that's almost always a bad idea to use.
Heck, by that logic if we're looking for improvements to almost always be a bad idea, why not have proficiency scale backwards and spellcasters to lose slots as they level?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Once more, with feeling. The 'universal fact' I have been addressing specifically with the other poster, is that it is, in their eyes, a 'universal fact' that the feat is broken and needs to be changed.

You can keep doing that if you like.

The feat is what it is, the analyses of it have been done in depth. Whether the impact it has on two-handed-weapon-users' DPR is broken, problematic, acceptable, or desirable is more a matter of opinion - but the OP in this thread had already formed his opinion, anyway. Most of this thread has been people arguing over the OP's a priori assumptions, rather than helping him with his variant.

 

[Corwin]

...but the OP in this thread had already formed his opinion, anyway. Most of this thread has been people arguing over the OP's a priori assumptions, rather than helping him with his variant.

If you are going to try and chastise me for being off topic, its going to have to go down on a spoonful of salt, until I see like being directed by you to the other parties in question. Parties no less off topic than I.

Besides, you should know as well as anyone that neither topic drift, nor tangential conversations, are a crime.

 

[hejtmane]

Interesting. I too have seen all three in play and did not come to the same conclusion. The variations on perceptions and expectations sure can be fascinating.


Good thing that's not all champions get, I guess?

My expectation was that the EK would be ho hum but they were accutaly way more tanky than I expected with shield/AE and starting from 7-11 with the SCAG adding greenflame blade and booming blade they get a nice extra damage buff until that 3rd attack comes into play.

Now Battle master was everything I thought it would be;

Champion is simple as expected but I thought it do better and addtional fighting style has been no big deal I had a guy go an entire sesion and never get a crit on his champion and we do 6-8 hour games I know bad rolling he was still hitting mobs just not getting the crits felt bad for him; what else do they realy get to boost damage until level 15 and the second fighting style is minor in a lot of ways

The group is runnign at level 13

 

[Fanaelialae]

If I were going to leave it as intact as I possibly could, I would do this:



That adds more dice rolling (boo!) but it doesn't have problems with going off the die with bless and other attack bonuses, benefiting from advantage, etc. Sure, someone with a Blowgun is still always going to use it, but once your average damage is 10 it's actually not worth it anymore. The ability becomes a complete gamble, especially once you get bonuses to damage rolls. The math means that the worse you are at attacking, the better it is to use this ability. The more skilled you are, the less benefit you get from it.

I don't think a flat 50% miss is a good idea, but wanted to point out that it's easy to implement if you're okay with it being around 50%. Simply make a natural odd roll on the d20 a miss. No extra dice required.