D&D 5E Mike Mearls on Settings

[Mercule]

Didn't expect THAT to blow up!

I used steampunk as a shorthand for "magic replacing technology that is anachronistic to a medieval setting"; the airships, lightning rails, Sharn, warforged, artificers, magewrights, etc. It wasn't entirely accurate, but it conveyed the concept of "fantastical technology analogy" in short hand. Its probably closer to early Final Fantasy games, where kingdoms exist alongside giant robots and transforming castles, but it conveyed the idea that we aren't assuming a world of traditional medieval technology.

In short, it was inelegant, but not a slight against the setting.

Eh. I didn't mean it to come off too harsh. I think [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] did a good job of explaining why the "punk " part doesn't apply. My rambling about western kinda stems from what happens if you try to pull the punk out.


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[renevq]

Why wouldn't it be punk? I mean, it's definitely not steampunk (that's purely aestetic). However, the "punk" assumptions you see in cyberpunk are there: overarching corporate power (dragonmarked houses), man-made sentient beings searching for a sense of being (warforged), the seedy underbellies of a huge metropolis (sharn), an actual orwellian mind controlling police-state (riedra), etc, etc. Cyberpunk has a lot of overlap with noir (most notably Blade Runner), and a lot of those themes are there. Magicpunk?

 

[Leatherhead]

Well to jump into the steampunk discussion for a second. I'd point out that there a Big part of Steampunk is the punk aspect. Taking Victorian cultural norms, and then turning them on their head as a commentary about modern culture.

I have had people debate that Steampunk isn't "punk" because it isn't about rebelling against the system, but rather being part of the system.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Please, no. Yes, it's pulpy.

There is no "punk" in Eberron, though. Noir, yes. Punk, no. Punk would not go well with the setting, at all.

You could potentially add some "steam" to it, but it isn't really a core aspect of the setting. Pretty sure that "steam" without the "punk" is really just a Western. Which could work, but the setting doesn't exactly scream for it.

I have to wonder what usage of "punk" you're using, here.

Seems to me Eberron is inarguably some manner of "punk", because one usage of the term is simply a type of speculative fiction that takes a time period or zeitgeist and extrapolates it beyond its original context. Ie, steampunk is a spec/fic genre which takes steam tech (and tech that is tied to it in the common imagination) and the Victorian zeitgeist, and extrapolates it to a "futuristic" vision.

Eberron does the same with the idea of magic as something that is scientifically quantifiable.

Punk can also mean a type of futurism, and can even be used specifically to refer to a type of *science fiction*, but it doesn't have to be.

Steam, OTOH, would directly contradict a core pillar of Eberron's conceptual structure. That is, the idea that this is a world wherein magic *replaces* technology, rather than being at odds with it, or enhancing it, etc. in Eberron, the steam engine is a mechanical construct powered by a bound elemental, or something of similarly *magical* nature.

Thus Keith Baker's resistance to the inclusion of guns, even magical guns, in the setting. For Keith, it is a world in which the gun is replaced by the eternal wand, the cannon by the siege staff, the tank by the Warforged Titan. He has even talked recently in the podcast manifest.zone (yes, that is really the URL) about how wands that anyone can use are probably not that far away, at which point warfare changes again.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The mechanical stuff you'd need for Eberron are:

1. An artificer class - one that's not just a flavor of wizard, but something that stands on its own. They should be good with buffs, and have a very good ability to solve problems given a little time at the cost of generally not having the needed solutions at hand - essentially, they need to MacGyver some stuff up first.

2. Races: Primarily Changelings, Shifters, and Warforged. Kalashtar would be nice, but Eberron psionics are rather neatly cordoned off into their own corner of the world, so I would be OK with a "These guys exist but they'll show up later" disclaimer.

3. Dragonmarks, implemented in a way where a PC can start with one and with the option, but not the necessity, of it increasing in power at higher levels.

If they get these three things done for Eberron, I'll be fairly happy. There are of course many other things I would like to see - sub-classes for draconic totem barbarians and for various druidic sects; kalashtar, Inspired, and psionics; proper dinosaur mounts for halflings; various Eberron-specific monsters, and so on. But those would be gravy - it's the artificer, the dragonmarks, and the races I primarily need.

IMO, Eberron also *has* to have more friendly magic item crafting rules, and "magic item shop" pricing and availability of *low level magic items*.

And maybe some kind of bonus feat from a limited list could cover Dragonmarks, as well as magewrights.

 

[Aldarc]

I have had people debate that Steampunk isn't "punk" because it isn't about rebelling against the system, but rather being part of the system.

Yeah, I suspect that "punk" has essentially become a meaningless genre suffix in much the same manner that "gate" is suffixed to mark a scandal as a result of "Watergate."

I have to wonder what usage of "punk" you're using, here.

Seems to me Eberron is inarguably some manner of "punk", because one usage of the term is simply a type of speculative fiction that takes a time period or zeitgeist and extrapolates it beyond its original context. Ie, steampunk is a spec/fic genre which takes steam tech (and tech that is tied to it in the common imagination) and the Victorian zeitgeist, and extrapolates it to a "futuristic" vision.

Eberron does the same with the idea of magic as something that is scientifically quantifiable.

Eberron definitely has "futurism," but this "futurism" is also placed side-by-side with many of the same beloved "European medievalism" elements of traditional D&D and "colonial exoticism" of pulp adventure.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

The thing with magic standing in for (psuedo)science-based technology is more accurately described as Magitech. A lot of Eberron's technology isn't based on physical science (beyond clockwork) but more on arcane principals, so it's Magitech.

 

[Gradine]

Why wouldn't it be punk? I mean, it's definitely not steampunk (that's purely aestetic). However, the "punk" assumptions you see in cyberpunk are there: overarching corporate power (dragonmarked houses), man-made sentient beings searching for a sense of being (warforged), the seedy underbellies of a huge metropolis (sharn), an actual orwellian mind controlling police-state (riedra), etc, etc. Cyberpunk has a lot of overlap with noir (most notably Blade Runner), and a lot of those themes are there. Magicpunk?

Signal boosting this for truth; I've used "Magicpunk" to describe Eberron in the past, particularly to folks whom I know are cyberpunk fans. Which is why this comment:

Well to jump into the steampunk discussion for a second. I'd point out that there a Big part of Steampunk is the punk aspect. Taking Victorian cultural norms, and then turning them on their head as a commentary about modern culture.

That aspect is largely absent from Eberron.

...is absolutely right about what it means to be "punk" (that is, commentary about modern culture) but largely misses the mark about Eberron itself. It's subtle, and it may not have even been intentional in all places (though given the sources of inspiration, I'm skeptical about that), but Eberron as a campaign setting is a lot more subversive than people tend to give it credit for.

YMMV of course; every DM's game is going to be quite a bit different, emphasize different aspects of the setting, etc. But the punk aesthetic is absolutely the reason my players and I took to the setting as much as we did.

 

[Staffan]

Spelljammer most certainly suffered when they tied it too strongly to the other settings, with suggestions that the campaign should happen around either Realmspace, Krynnspace or Greyspace. It left Spelljammer feeling like something where the spelljammers were just ferrying from one world to another, and it made it even worse when certain factions from Toril had a presence in space.

I agree.

To me, having other "primary" settings as part of Spelljammer lessens those settings, and creates some very weird effects. One effect is that it makes them smaller, by providing really fast global travel. For example, using the rules from the Spelljammer box set, entering or leaving Al-Toril's gravity well takes about 40 minutes. Once beyond it, you can switch to spelljamming speed, which is really really fast - fast enough to get from Earth to the Sun in just under a day. That means that with a spelljamming vessel, you can reach any point on Al-Toril from any other point in about an hour and a half. So why would you ever use non-spelljamming ship travel? Sure, spelljammers are expensive, but given how much faster they are than sailing ships it's just ridiculous, not to mention that you can make spelljammers that can land on land, so seas and rivers lose their attraction as travel routes. The Spelljammer material tried to get around this by saying that the Powers That Be in the regular settings discouraged contact with spelljamming vessels, particularly ones that displayed their abilities. That, to me, seems like a losing proposition - if the Masked Lords of Waterdeep don't want spelljamming vessels from Mulhorand coming around to trade, I'm sure the Mulhorandites wouldn't mind taking their business to Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter.

And as you say, it gets even worse when you give some Al-Toril organizations a space presence - notably the Red Wizards of Thay, and the empires of Shou Lung and Wa. If they have access to spelljamming tech and their competitors don't, why haven't they just won?

And the issue of trade rears its head as well. Al-Toril is a complete world. There's very little Al-Toril would need to, or even desire to, import from beyond the planet itself.

That's why the Astromundi Cluster was a much better Spelljamming setting than Grey-/Realm-/Krynnspace was - it didn't have whole planets. It was all just a bunch of asteroid clusters, which depended on contact with other clusters for survival.

 

[Shasarak]

Spelljammer most certainly suffered when they tied it too strongly to the other settings, with suggestions that the campaign should happen around either Realmspace, Krynnspace or Greyspace. It left Spelljammer feeling like something where the spelljammers were just ferrying from one world to another, and it made it even worse when certain factions from Toril had a presence in space.

I would suggest that if your adventure writers idea involves ferrying from one sphere to another then you really need a new adventure writer.

I never really minded the different factions, the Dragonships from Forgotten Realms were cool, the Tinker Gnomes from Krynn were great but I never really got into the Drow in Space theme they tried to introduce in 3e

They clearly should have put the focus on the Rock of Bral, given Bral its own system, focused on the Astromundi Cluster, the various space empires, and the many strange worlds introduced outside of the boxed set. Those 3 systems containing those 3 campaign worlds should have been left in a small appendix somewhere and not bothered with as anything central to the campaign setting.

I agree that they should focus on The Rock but absolutely not in its own sphere. That would be ruining its main advantage of being able to be used in any campaign.

At this point Realmspace seems like it would be a no brainer given that every adventure focuses on the Realms. That way you could potentially still tap the Realms Fans as well as Spelljammer Fans instead of trying to push an unknown sphere just to have Spelljamming rules.

Planescape was its own campaign setting, and only briefly touched on the other campaign settings. What happened in Planescape was mostly independent of anything else going on in any of the other campaign worlds, and that's one of the things that made Planescape memorable.

For me the memorable thing about Planescape was that it was the Hub for all the Planes and not just its own independent thing.