D&D 5E What makes a "full" spellcaster? [Warlock discussion]

[Irda Ranger]

First off I want to say I LOVE the Warlock class design. I'm not crazy about the thematic restrictions of only having evil or questionably-neutral patrons to choose from, but I like the design of Patrons, Pacts, Spells, and Invocations. You can mix and match them to such a degree that each Warlock can be really different from most other Warlocks.

That being said, I have a major reservation about their balance with the other "full" spellcasters. So I'd like to query the community about your experience with the Warlock.

Basically, I've run the numbers, and their spellcasting is really underpowered compared to all the others. They know the same number of spells or fewer than Sorcerers, know way fewer spells than Wizard or Cleric, know fewer spells than a Wizard or Cleric can prepare even, get fewer total spells/day, the least number of Cantrips, and only break even on "spell slot levels expended per day" (a number I made up equal to the sum of all spell slot-levels) if you assume two SRs.

Basically unless a Warlock needs 2 SRs/day to equal in total spell-slot-levels and 5 SRs/day to cast the same number of spells as a Cleric or Sorcerer (it's 6 SRs/day to equal Wizard thanks to Arcane Recovery).

Now I don't expect them to get the same total number of spells cast. Their spells are all at the highest level, so that's worth a lot. They always have the most high-level slots.

But is it worth it? Are the Pact Benefits + Invocations really good enough to even that you never get any low level spells?

(Note that I'm ignoring the benefits from the Patrons. They seem roughly the same as the benefits from Cleric Domain or Wizard Tradition, so that's a wash.)

 

[Corwin]

But you just said you love it. Sounds like you really don't? Or, at least, you are too busy having OPC* envy to let yourself like it, maybe?






(*Other Playable Classes)

 

[Xeviat]

They're a full caster. They get their spell levels at class level divided by 2 (round up). With two short rests, their Spell Points would nearly equal a full caster's. They're hyper potent Eldritch Blast cantrip helps shore up their damage weakness in not having low level spell slots, and their invocations can cover low level spell utility.


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[Fanaelialae]

White room math only gets you so far. I've played alongside several warlock and in my experience, they do not lack whatsoever.

 

[Irda Ranger]

But you just said you love it. Sounds like you really don't? Or, at least, you are too busy having OPC* envy to let yourself like it, maybe?

I like the flexibility of the mix and matching. I don't like being a gimp.

 

[Irda Ranger]

White room math only gets you so far. I've played alongside several warlock and in my experience, they do not lack whatsoever.

Thanks. It's that sort of playtest feedback and impressions I was looking for.

 

[Corwin]

I like the flexibility of the mix and matching. I don't like being a gimp.

Your own analysis* above did not seem to imply gimp. So I'm not sure what you are really trying to get at.



(*which fails to mention several significant benefits and factors, so I can safely say is incomplete. Or perhaps suffering from confirmation bias, even.)

 

[mellored]

But is it worth it? Are the Pact Benefits + Invocations really good enough to even that you never get any low level spells?

Invocations are low level spells. Darkvision, false life, levitate, etc... are all low level spells and invocations. Warlocks get less variety, but can spend all day, every day, disgised as someone else.
(Except the invocations that are 1/day, which are just bad).

Overall I wouldn't consider them full spell casters. They are 3/4 spell caster, 1/4 magical archer.

 

[Corwin]

... and their invocations can cover low level spell utility.

Yeah. How many "spell slot levels expended per day" credit is being given for at-will access to spells like: alter self, arcane eye, detect magic, disguise self, false life, jump, levitate, mage armor, silent image, speak with animals, and/or speak with dead? (Did I miss any?)

 

[jgsugden]

Let's assume one Short Rest per Long Rest.

A 5th level Warlock gets 4 slots over that long rest period to cast 4 3rd level spells and knows 6 spells. If he has found a Rod of the Pact Keeper or a Pearl of Power (or both), that might go up by 1 or 2 slots. A wizard, sorcerer or cleric can cast 2 or 3, maybe 4 with a Pearl of Power, spell - but has 9 to 12 total spells. Warlock is doing more of the powerful stuff, but has less of the weaker stuff - unless they have an invocation like Misty Visions that allows unlimited Silent Image spells.

11th level Warlocks get one 6th level spell and 6 5th level spells (maybe 7 with the Rod, and/or bonus a 3rd with Pearl of Power for up to 8 spells). The Wizard is now running around with 16 to 20 spells, but the same 1 6th level slot - but only 2 or 3 5th level spots compared to the 6 to 7 that the warlock gets. Further, the warlock likely now has 1 or 2 unlimited use spells (levitate self and silent image?) to go with those eldritch blasts. The Warlock hits hard.

At 17th level The Warlock has the same number of 6, 7, 8 and 9 level spells as the wizard and 8 or 9 5th level spells. The wizard has 17 to 22 slots of 5th level or below. However, only 3 of those are 5th level slots compared to the 8 or 9 Warlock spells of 5th level. The warlock also may have 4 unlimited use spells at this point (levitate self, silent image, arcane eye, hold monster (celestial/fiend/elemental)?)

At all 3 of those feel pretty comparable to me - and this is based upon experience, not theory. I've done that progression in both classes and know how they both feel.