D&D 5E Non-stealth surprise

[Caliban]

Yes, it is different, and that's quite interesting. My NPCs are more like characters in a play - they tend to write themselves - and I find that entertaining in itself. Maybe that's why I dislike the idea that they might be arbitrarily cut down by dictat - to me, they are "people" with a right to existence. I can quite see, though, that your way of using them is equally valid from a game point of view.

For "people with a right to exist", you sure went from "DM hand waves the death of a single nameless guard for expediency" to "PC's are implementing wholesale slaughter and the guards are helpless to resist" awful fast.

You removed the control from the DM and put it in the players hands, and then expanded it from a single guard to a whole regiment of guards (from where?), all in a single leap of logic with no explanation. No one except you was suggesting mass slaughter of a regiment of guards in a single minute. Turning an off-hand suggestion into Auschwitz seems a bit extreme to me.

So while it might be a topic best suited for another thread, I don't think anything useful would come from it.

 

[Not a Hobbit]

Dear ENworlders:

Now I'm not very smart, but I will often try to look at things from the opposite perspective: If one of the guards were a disguised assassin, would he be able to surprise attack the PC with critical sneak attack damage, move his movement, and then dash with his bonus action, with the characters unable to do anything to stop it?

I would think there would be some sort of uproar among the players if the DM were to declare that their character was surprised in that situation.

Are PCs assumed to be always on guard? I mean, why should they have expected anything sinister from this random squad of guards escorting them to the king? If they are on guard, why would the guards not be the same.

--Scott

 

[Caliban]

Dear ENworlders:

Now I'm not very smart, but I will often try to look at things from the opposite perspective: If one of the guards were a disguised assassin, would he be able to surprise attack the PC with critical sneak attack damage, move his movement, and then dash with his bonus action, with the characters unable to do anything to stop it?

I would think there would be some sort of uproar among the players if the DM were to declare that their character was surprised in that situation.

Are PCs assumed to be always on guard? I mean, why should they have expected anything sinister from this random squad of guards escorting them to the king? If they are on guard, why would the guards not be the same.

--Scott

There are situations where the PC's can get "auto-surprised" - usually it's due to the special abilities of certain creatures though. Mimics, Gargoyles, Twig Blights all have abilities that make them "indistinguishable" from an object or plant.

Unless the PC's have reason to be specifically suspicious of random chests, statues, or plants (such as knowledge that there are mimics, gargoyles, or twig blights in the area), the DM could reasonably rule that they are automatically surprised.

That isn't directly relevant to this specific scenario of course, just showing that it is possible. Outside of special abilities that make you indistinguishable or undetectable, there should usually be an opposed check, although if using Passive Perception or Passive Insight, it may be the case that no one has one high enough to detect the Stealth/Deception check, or there are special circumstances that shift the odds, or make ability checks unnecessary (this shouldn't be common, as it's not much fun if it keeps happening).

 

[Satyrn]

Do people accept Sage Advice as authoritative at all? I'm looking at the part that starts:and goes on to say

Now, I concede that his doesn't preclude slaughtering a guard suddenly outside combat, but it does rather preclude claiming that surprise made it possible, which is what the OP was asking about.

No.It's just advice.

And I've rather been discussing the OP's implied question "how would you handle this scenario?" because my answer to "would you use surprise?" is "maybe" and that's not helpful.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

There are situations where the PC's can get "auto-surprised" - usually it's due to the special abilities of certain creatures though. Mimics, Gargoyles, Twig Blights all have abilities that make them "indistinguishable" from an object or plant.

I can agree about Mimics and Twig Blights, but any adventurer who is surprised when a gargoyle statue starts to move should consider a different career.

 

[Caliban]

I can agree about Mimics and Twig Blights, but any adventurer who is surprised when a gargoyle statue starts to move should consider a different career.

If they know that that gargoyles are a type of creature and not just a common church decoration, sure. We know because we've been playing D&D for years.

 

[Yunru]

If they know that that gargoyles are a type of creature and not just a common church decoration, sure. We know because we've been playing D&D for years.

Also don't blink.

 

[Caliban]

Also don't blink.

That's only with their more evolved form - the weeping angel gargoyles.

 

[Satyrn]

Dear ENworlders:

Now I'm not very smart, but I will often try to look at things from the opposite perspective: If one of the guards were a disguised assassin, would he be able to surprise attack the PC with critical sneak attack damage, move his movement, and then dash with his bonus action, with the characters unable to do anything to stop it?

I would think there would be some sort of uproar among the players if the DM were to declare that their character was surprised in that situation.

Are PCs assumed to be always on guard? I mean, why should they have expected anything sinister from this random squad of guards escorting them to the king? If they are on guard, why would the guards not be the same.

--Scott

I'm sure you're plenty smart.

But of course, this isnt about smartness. This is just a play preferences thing. If you prefer making rulings that you'd have swing both ways - for and against the players - then yeah you're gonna avoid making those sorts of rulings. That's cool.

Me, I just won't use such a ruling the against the players, rather choosing to handle the assassin attack in a some other way closer to standard combat rules.

We both avoid that player uproar in our own ways. That's awesome.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

If they know that that gargoyles are a type of creature and not just a common church decoration, sure. We know because we've been playing D&D for years.

Who would want to decorate their church with statues that are indistinguishable from actual monsters?! They would be a pretty good deterrent against intruders since they would expect the statues to attack at any moment, though.