D&D 5E How to Run Combats in a Cavernous Dungeon Without Alerting All NPC's?

[ezo]

Concerning scale, I would use the SMALL squares as 5', making the 3x3 larger squares 15'x15' or one giant in size:

 

[pukunui]

1st, your scale of 1 square = 10 feet is off for this dungeon. If we used your scale then that big box in Area 12? That would be one stone giant. Clearly, that won't work. Instead, this map implies a scale of 1 square = 30 feet. Those four boxes in Area 12? Now with this scale those are the 4 stone giants you have there.

Huh? Giants are Huge, which is 15' x 15'. That's 1.5 squares on a 10-foot-square map. Not even a standard Gargantuan creature would take up a 30' x 30' space.

@ezo's suggestion above is the best solution for scale, I think. That makes the map easy to use, as the PCs can still fit in a square, but also makes it easy to track the giants' spaces because they fit into one of the bigger squares. That scale also makes it so the giants can fit down most tunnels without having to squeeze through them.

 

[Quickleaf]

Huh? Giants are Huge, which is 15' x 15'. That's 1.5 squares on a 10-foot-square map. Not even a standard Gargantuan creature would take up a 30' x 30' space.

@ezo's suggestion above is the best solution for scale, I think. That makes the map easy to use, as the PCs can still fit in a square, but also makes it easy to track the giants' spaces because they fit into one of the bigger squares. That scale also makes it so the giants can fit down most tunnels without having to squeeze through them.

Oh hah, i had a brain freeze. Thats what I get for trying to help!

 

[pukunui]

Oh hah, i had a brain freeze. Thats what I get for trying to help!

No worries! It happens.

 

[ezo]

@ezo's suggestion above is the best solution for scale, I think. That makes the map easy to use, as the PCs can still fit in a square, but also makes it easy to track the giants' spaces because they fit into one of the bigger squares. That scale also makes it so the giants can fit down most tunnels without having to squeeze through them.

Yep, there are only a few areas which would then be barely 10' wide, which the giants and "squeeze through" using the standard rules.

 

[pontinyc]

Ok, had a chance to dive into your map, and I've marked it up...

View attachment 382835

1st, your scale of 1 square = 10 feet is off for this dungeon. If we used your scale then that big box in Area 12? That would be one stone giant. Clearly, that won't work. Instead, this map implies a scale of 1 square = 30 feet. Those four boxes in Area 12? Now with this scale those are the 4 stone giants you have there.

That's a big difference in scale! Because now, the distance from Area 2: kobold to the stone giant hall Area 12 is 300+ feet. While a loud sound will carry that far... it's going to take those stone giants (speed 40) about 4 rounds to get to Area 2. Similarly, the lamias in Area 7 are 1000+ feet from Area 2 now, and they definitely won't hear anything, not even a thunderburst.

OK, we've fixed the scale, now let's get into it...

Greyed out monsters – Area 8: chained red dragons & Area 10: ghost I'm assuming are not the "seek and destroy" types, so for our purposes of "what happens if PCs get heard", they're non-issues.

Dashed lines indicate definite areas creating their own "sound bubbles" – Area 4: armory (clang clang) and Area 8: red dragons (roar, snarl, complain, threaten). So... while fighting in Area 2 will attract the ogres in Area 3, the giant armorers in Area 4 may not hear immediately unless it's really loud (e.g. thunderburst). Of course, if fighting in the armory stops the clang clanging... other monsters in the dungeon may notice the absence of that sound.

The solid line around Area 14 indicates a chamber which would have acoustic absorbing qualities – the sound would travel up the "pit"/shaft and go into the alcoves, but it probably wouldn't emanate far beyond that chamber.

And I noted some ( ? ) areas which I'm not clear what's happening and you might want to consider how they affect the acoustics...

• Area 15: is there an open passage/ledge connecting the general's room to the hallway by Area 2? It's unclear on the map. I would suggest maybe an arrow slit, but not a connection there – because otherwise you'll have the general hear and get involved right away, and that leads to the "Red Alert all forces to the front, cue brutal protracted chokepoint fight scene that overstays its welcome."
• Area 11: What are the four stone giants doing here? Seems like 2 may be guarding the dragons, and 2 guarding the Area 14/15 zone? If that's the case, you need to consider how imperative it is that they keep their posts... yeah intruders are an immediate threat, but they have other allies to deal with that, and if they leave the red dragons unguarded and the dragons were to break free...that might be WORSE.
• Area 6: What are those grey areas north & south of trolls? That may influence what the trolls hear or what they're doing (and thus how alert they are / caring they are about distant sounds).

Oh, man. Quickleaf. Seriously. This is so tremendously helpful, thank you. I should've clarified that each of those squares you see inherent on the map aren't the actual grid. There's a too-feint overlay of a grid that can barely be seen which is the actual Roll20 grid I'm using. Each one of the squares on the map you see here encompasses roughly four grid squares which makes them 10' x 10'. But your point is certainly taken that there's enough space between NPC's overall to have some skirmishes without alerting the entire place. I was thinking less RAW and more, "I can hear a car backfire five blocks away," sort of thing.

This is all to say, the above is extremely helpful and clarifying, many thanks again. Phenomenal community here.

 

[pontinyc]

After seeing the keyed map, Im not seeing much problem. The rooms are spaced out enough that theres only really 3 encounters that might alert one adjacent room:
5&6 - 4 giants alert 2 trolls, challenging but not overwhelming
10&11 - Ghost means it wont 'naturally' respond to stuff that isnt ethereal, thus keep them seperate, or combine them and have the giant antagonistic to the giants too. (PCs can ally with the ghost or ally with the giants or have a GhostvGiantvPC free for all)
14&15 - General and his 4 pet bears makes a good encounter zone - play up the Generals battlefield command abilities and lair actions

The rest have enough gap and padding to keep the noise muffled regardless of fights occuring

Very helpful, makes this all seem much more possible. Thanks, Tonguez.

 

[pontinyc]

This is perfect IMO of what a dungeon SHOULD BE!

The party is a group of invaders entering the giant stronghold and will have to be extremely cautious, understand the use of bottlenecks, and be prepared to fight tooth and nail for each inch once the general alert has been sounded.

2 should be handled by stealth or swarm the lone kobold, grapple and silence it, etc.

3 will have some general noise coming from it, but the PCs will have to be cautious. A lookout should watch from the entry and others ready to move up in case 4 or 5 are alerted.

4 as an armory can have ringing hammers, etc. which will cause more issue of alarm when that STOPS! A giant from 5 might come to find out why the giants in here aren't making sounds anymore.

5 is dangerous as 6 will likely not only hear sounds of battle but see it. A giant here might run past area 2 to 12 for help.

6 will probably see one troll engage the party to "slow them down" and help those at 5 while the other runs to 7 to start spreading the alert! They will act on the round after they notice battle at 5.

7 will likely be alerted by a troll in 6 and move to help with the troll back to 5. Arriving 3-4 rounds after battle in 5 has begun.

8 being chained keeps them here. If the dragons are roaring, it would echo and be heard throughout the caves. The PCs will likey hear this in general, giving them a warning of their presence in the caves.

9 is fairly removed but could have a giant from 11 come get it to help fight at area 11.

10 will likely move to engage the PCs at area 11 but probably no further. Depending on the nature of the ghost, it might be a temporary ally to the PCs instead?

11 is like 5 being centrally located along a couple tunnels. Depending on which direction the PCs arrive from, there are sufficient numbers here for one to run for aid and sound the alert if it already hasn't been done.

12 a giant will flee from here to alert those at 11, returning a few rounds later with the rest.

13 omitted.

14. the dire bears will come to 11 if they are not trapped in the pit itself.

15 the general will likely come to 11 if any alarm is sounded.

Overall, giants will likely have horns to sound for alarm, gongs as well hanging in key areas. They are military and will move quickly when the alarm sounds!

I was in a game where we faced Fire Giants in the Hall (from AtG module series) and the party faced something like 5 "encounters" in a row, wave after wave, and the entire battle took something like 40 rounds and like 5 hours to play out. It was insane. We finished a lot by stealth, but when the alarm was given we had to dig deep and rely on some luck as well to put it out.

Ezo, this is phenomenal, many thanks for taking the time and the interest. It's hugely appreciated. This is going to make things infinitely easier. Even though I'm realizing that I have more space to work with than I thought, leaning in to letting the encounters run their course and the chips fall where they may makes this feel much, much easier.

 

[pontinyc]

OK so the first creature the PCs will encounter is the kobold. I'm guessing he's a sentry of some kind, so if he survives more than a round, he'll shout for help. I would say the SOP would be for an ogre from the tannery to come investigate. The stone giants don't think it's worth their time to do what their minions are supposed to do for them.

If the PCs get into a noisy fight with the ogre, then the other two ogres would come running, and then maybe one of the stone giants from area 12.

The stone giants in the armory are perhaps sparring, and are therefore making enough noise that they won't hear combat. This noise will also cover fighting and not disturb any stone giants resting in area 5.

If the PCs have managed to deal with the kobold quietly enough that they haven't disturbed anyone else, they can sneak down the hall past areas 3 and 4 without being noticed. You could make it so the giants in area 5 are actually asleep, giving the PCs a chance to sneak past them as well.

The trolls in area 6 will be looking down the tunnel to the southeast, so the PCs could surprise them or just sneak past them. If they haven't dealt with the giants in area 5, then a fight with the trolls here might wake up those giants. Conversely, if the PCs fight the giants in area 5, it's likely that the trolls will come investigate.

The lamias are unlikely to leave their den. They'd wait for any intruders to come to them.

And so forth.

Love all of this breakdown, pukunui. I was trying to avoid knocking over the dominoes before when I should simply allow them to fall (in a manner that is challenging but not a TPK). Really changed my mindset about it which is really helpful, many thanks.

 

[pontinyc]

OK so the first creature the PCs will encounter is the kobold. I'm guessing he's a sentry of some kind, so if he survives more than a round, he'll shout for help. I would say the SOP would be for an ogre from the tannery to come investigate. The stone giants don't think it's worth their time to do what their minions are supposed to do for them.

If the PCs get into a noisy fight with the ogre, then the other two ogres would come running, and then maybe one of the stone giants from area 12.

The stone giants in the armory are perhaps sparring, and are therefore making enough noise that they won't hear combat. This noise will also cover fighting and not disturb any stone giants resting in area 5.

If the PCs have managed to deal with the kobold quietly enough that they haven't disturbed anyone else, they can sneak down the hall past areas 3 and 4 without being noticed. You could make it so the giants in area 5 are actually asleep, giving the PCs a chance to sneak past them as well.

The trolls in area 6 will be looking down the tunnel to the southeast, so the PCs could surprise them or just sneak past them. If they haven't dealt with the giants in area 5, then a fight with the trolls here might wake up those giants. Conversely, if the PCs fight the giants in area 5, it's likely that the trolls will come investigate.

The lamias are unlikely to leave their den. They'd wait for any intruders to come to them.

And so forth.

Again, incredibly helpful breakdown. Really appreciate your taking the time.