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D&D 5E Warlock in party with Quasit breaking story

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Legend
Supporter
Are you sure an invisible creature still needs to make a stealth check to not get detected? Then what's the difference between it not being invisible and being invisible. Shouldn't invisibility make you undetectable unless you make like a noise or there is a smell or something? Should it like add some number to it's stealth rolls or?

As per the rules for Stealth, as far as I've interpreted them, yes an Invisible creature still needs to make a Stealth check to remain undetected.

Now that being said... it should be made absolutely clear to everyone reading this even before I start talking that the Stealth rules have been written extremely open-ended on purpose, because the designers knew that hiding was one of those places where ever single DM had their own opinions on how they felt it should work. No matter what rules they gave, probably 85% would say "Those rules are horrible! I'm not doing that!". Thus, in this one instance they basically threw up their hands, said "Here are some BASIC hiding and stealth rules to follow", and then explicitly told every DM to make rulings not rules on the situation that makes the most sense for them. So... with that in mind, let's not devolve the thread into the 145th "Here's how Stealth works!" fiasco. I'm going to start going over some of the rules as I believe they are meant to be understood, but I acknowledge not everyone will agree with me. And that's okay!

What part of the rules say is that you must not be clearly seen when attempting to hide. And part of the rules state that getting completely out of line of sight or becoming "heavily obscured" is the most basic way of not being clearly seen. What Invisibility does is take you out of line of sight regardless of where you are. Most creatures have to go behind walls or into thick bushes or around corners or into the fog to get out of line-of-sight or become heavily obscured. But the creature who can turn Invisible can just do that no matter where they stand, and thus have fulfilled that requirement in order to try and become Hidden.

Why do you need to "try and become Hidden"? Because part of the game assumes that to remain completely undetected by any and all creatures means not only that you can't be seen, but also that you can't be heard, you can't be smelled, you can't be felt (by the movement of air currents or vibrations through the ground as you move around), and you don't affect the environment noticeably (like leaving tracks or bumping into objects or moving branches etc.) And the way the game assumes how well you do all this is based upon the Dexterity (Stealth) check you roll. Because that creates the DC from which other creatures can then attempt Wisdom (Perception) checks to notice you. Without the Dexterity (Stealth) check to set the DC, you have no way as the DM to determine whether the PCs have done anything to be noticed because the Perception checks having nothing to roll against.

At the most basic level, that's what I personal think the rules were trying to get across on how Hiding works. Now, as I said, the rules were written very open-ended, so I'm sure there are many DMs on the boards here who will disagree with even my most basic analysis of what the rules state are supposed to happen. WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY FINE! You yourself might also read what I've written and think "That sounds stupid! I'd never run the game like that!" Which, again, is absolutely fine! You as the DM are free (and are supposed to) figure out the Stealth and Hiding rules that work best for you. If you want anything Invisible to be completely undetectable, and thus there's no need for a check to create a DC for which others to use Perception against, that's fine! If it works for you, then great!

However... it seems like that is not in fact what you really want, because you seem disappointed that the quasit does fly around "undetected" and ruining surprises and such. And thus, I would suggest going ahead and using this interpretation of the stealth rules that I gave. It's not enough for the quasit to just be invisible, it also needs to remain silent, it has to be extremely careful that the beating of its wings as it flies around do not create odd wind patterns that other pick up on, and that any potential demonic and sulfuric stench it might give off is covered up. And the way to do that is for the warlock/sorcerer player to have the quasit make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. If you want its natural invisibility give it a bit of an advantage, you can have it make the check with Advantage. But whatever it rolls, that sets the DC for any other people in the location to possibly notice this "invisible thing" flying around them. And it is up to you (as DM) to decide if and when any creature within the location might possibly notice something odd, and allow them to make a Wisdom (Perception) check.

Some creatures you might decide don't get to roll. They're distracted or doing something else and not paying attention. But some creatures might be "on guard" and thus could have a chance to notice something weird flying around that they can't see but can feel or hear. And thus you let them roll a Perception check. Possibly with Disadvantage, possibly normally, possibly with Advantage (depending on what they are doing, how much they are on guard, their knowledge of magic and Invisibility in particular, and what abilities or features they have to help with their "non-sight" senses.)

At the end of the day... these are all things for which you get to make 'Rulings, not Rules'. Best of luck to you with however you decide to run things.

EDITED TO ADD: One final thing to remember... even if your invisible quasit gets detected because it rolled a horrible Stealth check and the guards rolled a fantastic Perception check-- the quasit is still Invisible. Which means it still has the Invisible condition, and thus still gains all the benefits that condition gives. Be sure to check the Conditions chart in the Basic Rules / Players Handbook to identify all the benefits an Invisible creature gets. The quasit still gets them even though it has been noticed.
 
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Decorayah

First Post
While the DM is certainly free to do that in his or her campaign, I would argue that the dm isn't using the rules as intended in this circumstance. Generally,quasits, pseudodragons, and imps are special familiars that players can't even gain access to unless they are pact of the chain warlocks. You can alter the nature of normal familars as you choose but when you select one of the special familiars they are just that special. And you have to except the special conditions that come with that. Additionally, setting the rules aside, you can't just turn demons into fey, their lore is that they are like a planar cancer. It just wouldn't work, if that was an option the gods would have went into the abyss a long time ago and turned everything into saytrs and gnomes.

I am the DM. I am talking about a warlock that is PoTC in the party.
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
Hello guys. I'm a novice DM and am running a party of 4 through a story of my own making. I'v spent quite a lot of time coming with the story and it is my focus in the campaign. I often try to create suspense, mystery, a feeling of exploration etc. All is going well except one thing: we have a warlock/sorcerer multi-class in the party with pact of the chain. He has a quasit familiar that can fly, can be used for his senses up to a mile away, is invisible and can shape change. This basically means he always knows everything in advance. Also the quasit is a slave, meaning he can't disobey. Here's an example.

1. There is a small mysterious castle in the distance. He just sends the quasit to fly over and scout everything.

Not everything, just what it can see from the air.

2. There are guards everywhere. Quasit doesn't care: he's invisible.

He'd better care - he can't be seen, but he can still be heard, smelled, or felt if he bumps into someone.

3. There is a locked door. Quasit doesn't care. He transforms into a small centipede and enters through the lock.

Even a small centipede wouldn't fit through a lock. Might fit under the door or through another hole, but if it's something important the room would be sealed against even small creatures. Or protected with magic that reveals invisible creatures or hedges out infernal creatures (similar to Magic Circle). It's a fantasy world, they would know such things are possible with magic.

If it's not that important, well, that's the benefit of having a magical shapeshifting invisible familiar.

4. Oh no it's been detected. Warlock can just instantly recall it.

Only if the warlock is actively communicating with it, and even then I don't it's actually "instant". And remember, unless the Warlock takes the "Voice of the Master" invocation, they can only communicate within 100 feet. Farther than that and the quasit is on it's own. If they do have that invocation - well, they spent resources on it, so they should get a benefit.

5. Oh no it's killed. Warlock can have another within an hour.

Yup.

Seriously? I can't create any surprises or suspense or anything when he knows everything in advance. I have 2 questions:

1. Is everything I said here valid? Can he really do everything I described?
2. If it is then can any more experienced DMs tell me how I can counter that without just saying every creature in the world has true sight because that would make zero sense.

Any help is greatly appreciated because I am feeling quite powerless to present the story I want and don't want to just say "DM rule. You can't use a Quasit. Deal with it"

An invisible, shapeshifting, intelligent familiar is very handy as a scout. It's their class ability, so they should get some benefit out of it. Just realize that they aren't the only one in the world with a familiar like this, so reasonably intelligent opponents can take precautions against them if they have reason too.

Dogs or other animals that don't like the scent of fiends. Tressym (a winged cat that can see invisible and is immune to poison) as trained guardians would be a perfect foil for a quasit. They don't even have to be summoned - they are native the Forgotten Realms and common in certain areas. They could be native to whatever setting you are using if you decide. http://i.imgur.com/mYfKx5f.jpg

The PC's aren't the only ones with magic. Magical wards (like the Alarm spell, or Hallow, etc) could detect or block fiends from an area. (If the people in the castle don't have any magic available...well, don't bring a knife to a wand fight.)
 
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Decorayah

First Post
The "win conditions," if you will, of D&D are stated in the Basic Rules, page 2:

"There’s no winning and losing in the Dungeons & Dragons game—at least, not the way those terms are usually understood. Together, the DM and the players create an exciting story of bold adventurers who confront deadly perils. Sometimes an adventurer might come to a grisly end, torn apart by ferocious monsters or done in by a nefarious villain. Even so, the other adventurers can search for powerful magic to revive their fallen comrade, or the player might choose to create a new character to carry on. The group might fail to complete an adventure successfully, but if everyone had a good time and created a memorable story, they all win."

To the extent your group buys into the above statement, even the "completely legal" use of a class feature (or whatever) must past the test of whether that choice makes the game fun for everyone and helps create an exciting memorable story. There is never a guarantee that the choice to use a game option is going to result in fun or an exciting story. To that end, you may want to consider an open, honest, and non-confrontational discussion with the group as a whole to express your concern and gather their opinions, if you have not already done so.

In preparation for that discussion, consider the possibility that you are the only one with the problem. Because while you say that the campaign is made "worse for both himself and everyone else," you also say "...our party is very pragmatic and doesn't do anything like that. They just sit around and wait for as much information as possible. It honestly gets boring at a point but they go on." Chiefly, your concerns appear to be centered around presenting the story you want and including surprises and suspense. Personally, I don't think that should be your concern as DM, but to each their own. If surprises were desirable, the players wouldn't be trying to prepare for or avoid them. Suspense can also be achieved in other ways. And if knowing something in advance is defeating the challenge you prepared, then what you have there is a "gotcha," which is not a real challenge at all. In my view, it's best to learn to design away from "gotchas" anyway, so if that's what you're doing, it's good you're realizing it's not viable now. Knowing things should rightly give the PCs an edge, but it's not the end of the challenge (or at least shouldn't be).

If you come away from that discussion alone in your feelings about the familiar, then it may be time to reassess your goals and priorities as DM. And that's good fodder for another thread.

I understand how liberal D&D is in it's structure. It's one of the things I like best about it :) . I'v thought about doing that discussion but just a session ago I limited an ability of his and he ended up requesting a character revamp claiming I basically destroyed his reason for having that ability (it was an invocation).

(here's that situation shortly: he had repelling blast. He hit a huge creature (as big as a five story building basically) and wanted it to move 10 feet back. I said he can't move something weighing hundreds of tons 10 feet back with a simple spell like that. He said because the invocation doesn't specify how big the creature must be then it should work on a creature of any size. We argued over it for half an hour. In the end he agreed with me reluctantly but requested to unchoose repelling blast).

Your argument about it possibly being a problem only I see and the players actually not having anything against a less surprise/mystery more tactics/battles is a good one. I do however have a counter. At the begging of the campaign I gave them a poll with a couple of questions. In it they clearly chose they want mystery/investigation more than battles. The only one that answered the opposite was that one player I am talking about.

I do however agree it's worth a discussion with them :)
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
Then it sounds like you are making find familiar more powerful then it generally is by allowing the warlock to ignore its built in drawbacks.

Are you for real?

What drawbacks? You yourself mentioned that everything mentioned can be obtained by being a pact of the chain warlock and, oh look, it's mentioned several times that the warlock is a pact of the chain. The only thing here being ignored seems to be your ignoring the fact that it's a pact of the chain warlock.
 


ccs

41st lv DM
Yeah, Warlock familiars are different from the Wizard spell, they are more powerful, actually intelligent, and have some baggage because of that.

Also, are you charging the 10gp for casting the spell each time?

And the charcoal, special herbs, & having to lug about a brazier.
 

jgsugden

Legend
I do encourage you to review the rules on stealth and hiding as invisibility, by itself is not as strong as you think in this edition.

However, I also suggest you rethink your approach to the situation. D&D is a role playing game. The PCs play the role of Heroes in a story. Heroes do what others cannot. As a DM, you job is to work with the players to craft a great story about those PCs. Constantly frustrating their ability to what others cannot, which in this case is spy using a powerful familiar, hampers the story. For the most part, the PC should be able to scout using the familiar because that is what they are designed to do. This may mean you have far fewer surprises in your game. So be it. Always being prepared is part of their heroic skill set. That just means that you bring more drama and tension to the game with other elements.

Also, scouting fom a mile away does have disadvantages. If the enemy happens to be able to catch the quasit, they will be on guard and will have time to prepare. If the familiar happens upon a scene that requires immediate action the PCs will be too far away to assist. The quasit is a thinking being the may be forced into loyalty, but that can take various forms. You don't need to force these things into the game ... wait for them to manifest naturally and utilize them as they arise. That will create a nice bit of drama that is an exception to the rule that they normally experience with the quasit scout techniques.
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
I would be annoyed at having Repelling Blast nerfed on me in the middle of a situation like that too. It's magic, it doesn't care how big the opponent is.

Regardless, how is the Quasit getting past all of the doors without making noise and/or disturbing things? And why are all the opponents stationary to the point where the Quasit can count them all?

Another factor is the Quasit can only report what it can see/hear. Okay so there are zombie guards and a collection of weapons, but why are they there, etc. Unless the campaign's a dungeon crawl, surely there's a reason for them to investigate these castles beyond "why not?"
 

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