D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Maxperson]

Now, your next question is can I point to that ever happening. Well, I don’t own any old modules or anything like that, so I must rely on my DMG to provide any evidence I have. The Deck of Many things for example has 2 cards (the Jester and the Sun) that grant EXP. That is the only example I can find in modern DnD, but since all items had to be created by something, and 5e makes it decently clear you need to be capable of doing a thing before you can make an item that does that thing, then this is something that should be possible for sufficiently powerful entities to do. And since granting EXP=Granting Levels, that kind of covers my bases I think.

The deck of many things is depending on the edition an artifact or magic item. As such it is encountered via adventuring. Any exp granted by it comes from adventuring, just like exp granted by gold in 1e came from adventuring. Adventuring is not just killing monsters, nor is that the only way to gain exp while adventuring.

Does the Eberron lady who gains 17 levels when she’s in her home temple count? That seems to be relatively blatant in “my god gave me these levels”

No, and the god didn't give them to her. Those levels are never hers. Rather they are the god's or the temple's, depending on what the story about her gaining the temporary use of those levels actually is.

If I was watching a movie about Daredevil, and during the entire movie Superman was just floating in the background, wouldn’t that kind of ruin it? He’s there, he’s watching. Daredevil may be fighting all these goons, but Superman could come in and just win the fight. He doesn’t, he just floats there, so the fight must not be important. There must not be real stakes, because Superman is THE hero, and if there were real stakes involved here he would act.

He doesn’t even need to be floating behind Daredevil’s shoulder and offering quippy advice. Even if he is just floating over the city, we know he is aware of Daredevil’s actions, that he could intervene, and that he does not, so the real fight, the real threat, must be something else.

Daredevil is still doing cool things, but the entire tone of the story is shifted because of the very presence of Superman in the skies. It can still be a cool story, but the closer it gets to “I’ll destroy the city if you don’t stop me” the weirder and weirder it gets that Superman does not get involved. He’s there, he knows about the threat, what is stopping him, why isn’t he acting, is this simply not important enough, is the enemy bluffing.

You don’t need him stopping everything for this to develop into a problem. You just need him in enough scenes and it ruins the illusion that you are making a difference. That you are doing something no one else is in the position to handle.

That never happens from anything inherent to the FR, though. The high level NPCs don't appear in a single scene, ever, unless the DM puts them there. No high level NPC is watching what is going on, opting not to step in and stop it. There are no high level NPCs aware of all the happens, making weird that no high level NPC stepped in to stop it. The only way that will ever happen is if you have a bad DM.

Being a competitor can never overshadow the group, unless they never win. If Raistlin is after something and the party needs to get it first, they cannot be overshadowed, unless it is the umpteenth time that it has happened and Raisltin always wins (see DMPCs for something similar)

Do you really think a party of levels 1-15 can compete with an epic wizard like Raistlin?

I keep going to comics because it is a medium that has a lot of “high level” characters. Let us say our setting is Gotham.

The existence of the Joker does not overshadow my vigilante detective. The Joker is a villain, someone to oppose and fight. The existence of Catwoman does not overshadow my vigilante detective. She is a sometimes ally, sometimes villain, sometimes competitor who plays by her own rules and makes for interesting encounters. The existence of Batman does overshadow my vigilante detective, because he is everything my guy is trying to be but he is the best at it. The shadow of Batman defines the types of things my character does, they will be compared constantly, if I do the same things he does then the question rises as to why, if I do different things the same question arises, no matter what this character does, he will be defined by Batman who is still an active hero in Gotham.

You can still have fun and interesting stories, you can really explore issues involved, but you have to deal with that in every instance. Batman goes out and fights crime and the Joker and interacts with Catwoman. That is perhaps a large part of why every superhero in Gotham is part of the “Bat Family” none of them can escape the fact that Batman is in this city and operating in Gotham means interacting in some way with Batman who is the hero of the city.

You can argue people are being silly all you like, but this is a problem for some people. Elminster being a massive hero, a super powerful wizard who actively goes and involves himself in the world makes him a potential problem if you want to tell stories about saving the world. Because Elminster makes a habit of saving the world, not Bob the Fighter and the Silver Scales Team that no one has ever heard of before. For some people, there group has no problem with that dichotomy, for others it truly harms their suspension of disbelief.

Look at the justice league. Batman shouldn't even be there according to this philosophy. Between Superman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and the Martian Manhunter, the rest of the League should be overshadowed and not even bother, and that's with the big guys actually present.........unlike what happens in the Forgotten Realms.

It isn’t just you Maxperson, but you just up above demanded that I provide you with canon materials that prove Gods can grant levels to people. Now in this you are saying “Well, I never used that canon module, so it isn’t canon for me”

Canon is canon. Whether you never used it is irrelevant. I am 26 years old, my first actual DnD campaign with people I ever played in took place in 2011. From my perspective I have never used a single module, read more than a half dozen novels, and have actually never played in a game that was either not explicitly or implicitly heavily home-brewed.

Canon is still canon. If I decided to run a realms game right now, and three months from now some thing is published that say Elminster goes mad and destroys the city my game is based in then I am going to ignore it, I am free to ignore it. Canon is that Elminster goes mad and destroys that city. I can’t go online and say “I chose to ignore it so it never happened and I don’t understand why you people are complaining about it happening”. Just because you can ignore it or you never bought the product that caused the problem does not mean it is not a problem.

Modules are not canon. Not because I don't want them to be, but because in general they just aren't. The same goes for novels. Look at Star Wars. Tons of novels with tons of great stories, but not canon. These FR novels and modules aren't canon unless the company actually makes those changes in the setting and/or adds those stories to setting supplements.

This is not how most of us think of canon. The novels are canon. The modules are canon (though who completed what to save the world changes per table) . Video games might be an exception, due to the nature of MMOs, but a lot of the material within them is probably still considered canon by a lot of people.

Nothing is canon unless the company explicitly says so. Many things are just farmed out to people to use the logo on, but aren't actually officially product history. Again, see Star Wars.

 

[jayoungr]

If I was watching a movie about Daredevil, and during the entire movie Superman was just floating in the background, wouldn’t that kind of ruin it? He’s there, he’s watching. Daredevil may be fighting all these goons, but Superman could come in and just win the fight. He doesn’t, he just floats there, so the fight must not be important. There must not be real stakes, because Superman is THE hero, and if there were real stakes involved here he would act.

He doesn’t even need to be floating behind Daredevil’s shoulder and offering quippy advice. Even if he is just floating over the city, we know he is aware of Daredevil’s actions, that he could intervene, and that he does not, so the real fight, the real threat, must be something else.

Two thoughts:

1. Maybe Superman just trusts Daredevil and is willing to let him handle it?

2. More importantly, in your example, Superman is constantly onscreen, reminding the audience of his presence. If he's not there, then there's no reason for the audience to think about him or even remember that he exists.

To take another example, I just (finally) saw Captain America: The Winter Soldier. This is a universe where there are far more powerful characters than Captain America, and yet that didn't make the movie less satisfying in any way.

 

[cbwjm]

Two thoughts:

1. Maybe Superman just trusts Daredevil and is willing to let him handle it?

2. More importantly, in your example, Superman is constantly onscreen, reminding the audience of his presence. If he's not there, then there's no reason for the audience to think about him or even remember that he exists.

To take another example, I just (finally) saw Captain America: The Winter Soldier. This is a universe where there are far more powerful characters than Captain America, and yet that didn't make the movie less satisfying in any way.

If Superman was floating around in the background of a Daredevil movie I think the response would be "Superman in a Marvel movie? Go back to DC, Superman, you're drunk."

 

[Demetrios1453]

That never happens from anything inherent to the FR, though. The high level NPCs don't appear in a single scene, ever, unless the DM puts them there. No high level NPC is watching what is going on, opting not to step in and stop it. There are no high level NPCs aware of all the happens, making weird that no high level NPC stepped in to stop it. The only way that will ever happen is if you have a bad DM.

Again, THIS.

High level NPCs have no independent agency outside what DMs give them.

 

[Hussar]

Only that which is specifically a setting or setting supplement. The novels are fun, but not canon. The modules are optional ideas for adventures, but are not canon. Video games are the same as modules. Now, if the novels or video game lore is placed into a setting later, it becomes canon at that point.

Ok, I think that, right there, gets to the heart of the issue. You are factually incorrect here. The novels and the modules most certainly are considered canon to the setting. They are officially canon. Now, you don't consider them thus, and that's fine. But, you have to realize that you are the only one working from this definition.

Not seeing that. Maybe you could walk me through your logic? If you look in the DMG under NPCs the first thing listed is Race and the second thing is Class followed by Attributes. Where are the NPC monster creation rules?

Sigh. This is going no where and I know right now that it's not going to go anywhere. So, let's just agree to disagree here.

 

[Hussar]

Nothing is canon unless the company explicitly says so. Many things are just farmed out to people to use the logo on, but aren't actually officially product history. Again, see Star Wars.

So, according to TSR and WotC, anything Greenwood writes or says about the Realms is canon until contradicted by WotC (or TSR back in the day). That is 100% true. It's part of the agreement that Greenwood made for selling the rights to FR to TSR. So, right there, the Greenwood novels are 100% canon. Anything that Greenwood wrote in Dragon, or anything he contributed to any website is 100% canon.

Note, up until very, very recently, EVERYTHING published for Star Wars was canon. Granted, the EU had a number of levels of canon, but, it was all still canon. The Fantastic Four partnering up with Luke Skywalker is canon in the EU. You might not like it, but, it is canon. (Also some rather silly stories with a talking rabbit, but, I digress)

Canon isn't a la carte. The novels, unless specifically called out, are 100% canon. The modules, again, unless specifically called out, are 100% canon. EVERYTHING published for the Realms, including the Baldur's Gate games (I'm not sure about the old Gold Box stuff) is 100% canon. This is official.

Again, you might not like it, but, that doesn't change it's nature.

 

[Hussar]

Two thoughts:

1. Maybe Superman just trusts Daredevil and is willing to let him handle it?

2. More importantly, in your example, Superman is constantly onscreen, reminding the audience of his presence. If he's not there, then there's no reason for the audience to think about him or even remember that he exists.

To take another example, I just (finally) saw Captain America: The Winter Soldier. This is a universe where there are far more powerful characters than Captain America, and yet that didn't make the movie less satisfying in any way.

By the same token, one of the bigger criticisms I saw of CA:TWS, is, where is Tony Stark or Thor? I mean, they drop a bloody Helicarrier into the bay and Tony's what, having cocktails?

The Netflix stuff handles this really well actually. None of the plotlines of the stories (Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage and Iron Fist) are global. They're all very, very local. It's entirely plausible that Thor doesn't show up to handle, say, The Hand. They're just not high enough on the radar (compared to say, dropping a Helicarrier out of the sky, or a giant floating structure hanging over London - a la Thor) to register. Fair enough. I can buy that Thor isn't concerned with The Kingpin.

But, there's the rub isn't it? In the 5e modules, we're not talking about local threats. We have flying bloody castles and dragons threatening the Sword Coast with releasing Tiamat. That's pretty high on the radar. So, it's not really that unreasonable to wonder just where Elminister et al are during all of this. Particularly in a setting where high double digit level NPC's are not particularly rare. I mean, Waterdeep has how many high level NPC's in it? I don't actually know beyond, more than 2. And Waterdeep is directly being threatened here. Yet, there's no mobilization.

I'm not sure why this is seen as such a completely unreasonable criticism.

 

[MackMcMacky]

You used the word organic without actually defining it. I took what it seemed to mean and used it. If you don't want that happening, be more specific about what you mean.

I left in your personal opinion that was backed up by nothing, because it amounted to, "Because I say so.". That you don't reduce NPCs to one label doesn't change the fact that Mordenkainen is an adventuring wizard with powerful allies and contacts.

I think I would be writing novella length posts to cover all the possible ways you would misconstrue what I say.

Essentially, all you are doing now is saying, "I'm right and you are wrong." I'm curious, about how old are you?

 

[Daniel Van Patten]

It's my understanding that the canon policy is:
[h=3]"All published paper sources under the FR label are canon. Video games are non-canon."[/h]
Which does mean we get some stinkers like the canon Baldur's Gate novels.

 

[Shasarak]

Sigh. This is going no where and I know right now that it's not going to go anywhere. So, let's just agree to disagree here.

Why dont we look at some example NPCs. What do you think would be a good one to stat up? Something like the Baldesmith you mentioned above for example.