D&D 5E (2014) "even" dualclassing
- Thread starter CapnZapp
- Start date
Actually I think classes might be exactly what's sought after, at least at its base. From that the standard classes could (hopefully) be recrafted with Hybrid in mind.
CapnZapp
Legend
I'm not sure what you mean and who you're saying it to.
I can, however, assure you that rebuilding the classes from scratch is not what I'm looking for
I'm specifically looking for an evaluation of the existing class features, not just relative to the others of a given class.
For instance, there are plenty of class guides out there that rate class features from sky blue and gold to red or brown. But the function is to help you choose, not to imply all gold or brown features are equally valuable.
If a single author did guides for all classes, and used the same ratings equally and not relative to each class, then we might have something. But as I understand it, that's never the case. All classes have their best features rated sky blue.
Fanaelialae
Legend
I'm not sure what you mean and who you're saying it to.
I can, however, assure you that rebuilding the classes from scratch is not what I'm looking for
I'm specifically looking for an evaluation of the existing class features, not just relative to the others of a given class.
For instance, there are plenty of class guides out there that rate class features from sky blue and gold to red or brown. But the function is to help you choose, not to imply all gold or brown features are equally valuable.
If a single author did guides for all classes, and used the same ratings equally and not relative to each class, then we might have something. But as I understand it, that's never the case. All classes have their best features rated sky blue.
That would be virtually impossible, since in that case (unless only one feature can be swapped for a given character) you have to consider all possible permutations of features. The whole is often greater than the sum of its parts, therefore features A and B in conjunction could well be worth more than the individual ratings of A and B would indicate. You'd ultimately have to give each feature a different rating for every possible combination of features it could be used with (I don't know how many that is, but it's at least well in the millions). In fairness, for the guides I've read, the authors do try to consider multiclass combos, which at least partially addresses your needs. For example, they'll say that Y is red for this class, but for a class with X it is gold.
Ultimately though, you have two main options as I see it. Either don't worry so much about balance, and allow any reasonable substitution. Or take a critical eye to the substitution and determine the consequences thereof yourself.
When the game first came out, there was a discussion about multi-classing to a fair amount. These are the conclusions I've reached, based on those discussions.
In general, there are three types of multi-classing that I've found:
Multiclassing, as per the alternate rules, really only supports Dipping. Its not intended to have duel classed options.
If you want a mixed class, the only real option is to go with a subclass. Want a mystic theurge type? Make a subclass that mixes cleric and wizard spell lists. Hells, we have that with the new sorcerer's favored soul test anyways. This is really the only option available, imho. Choose a base class, then alter a subclass so that it imports a few of the abilites ofthe other so that it feels duel-classy. Its not the same as swapping out abilities, but I've seen some homebrew that successfully change them around so that it functions similarly enough.
Career changes have no rules for them, and have been handled many ways, depending on the situation at hand. Sometimes, like a fallen paladin, we can get away with just swapping a subclass. Sometimes, we reset a party member to level 1 on a new class. Or convert them to a different class at the same level. And more. There's lots of individual context that comes up that having hard rules doesn't work for everyone.
In general, there are three types of multi-classing that I've found:
- Dipping - you just want to steal another mechanic from another class to use for your main direction, popularized in 3e.
- Dual Classing - you're mixing two classes into one. Wizard/Cleric hybrid, for example, or the Paladin/Warlock, both classics.
- Career Changes - a story-driven transformation where you renounce one profession for another - the reformed thief/warlock being most obvious, the retired warrior another, etc.
Multiclassing, as per the alternate rules, really only supports Dipping. Its not intended to have duel classed options.
If you want a mixed class, the only real option is to go with a subclass. Want a mystic theurge type? Make a subclass that mixes cleric and wizard spell lists. Hells, we have that with the new sorcerer's favored soul test anyways. This is really the only option available, imho. Choose a base class, then alter a subclass so that it imports a few of the abilites ofthe other so that it feels duel-classy. Its not the same as swapping out abilities, but I've seen some homebrew that successfully change them around so that it functions similarly enough.
Career changes have no rules for them, and have been handled many ways, depending on the situation at hand. Sometimes, like a fallen paladin, we can get away with just swapping a subclass. Sometimes, we reset a party member to level 1 on a new class. Or convert them to a different class at the same level. And more. There's lots of individual context that comes up that having hard rules doesn't work for everyone.
CapnZapp
Legend
No, I can also ask at ENWorld if anyone else has already done this job for me
Sigh. If I got a dollar for every time somebody told me "you can always do it yourself" as if a) I didn't know that already and b) as if that "advice" were in any way, shape or form helpful... I would be a rich man today...
Perhaps I need to add this to my sig?
CapnZapp
Legend
But... but... you do say hard rules work (perhaps not for everyone, but for enough)...?
You mentioned the example that's actually the one I have in mind - the Paladin Warlock.
You want the character to meet the following minimum requirements, at the very least:
* Makes both his pact and oath no later than third character level, at the very latest
* Gets to pick at least a couple "signature" abilities, enough to satisfy both character-concept-wise and mechanically. For instance, if you feel a Ranger is no ranger unless you have Natural Explorer, you need to be able to get that rather quickly. Equally important, if a big reason you picked Paladin was for its Aura of Protection, you need to gain that at pretty much sixth level, or the entire endeavor loses much of its point (you might only be playing levels 1-10 after all).
Regular multiclassing does not work for this purpose, just as you say (and also this is the core reason for this thread).
I don't see any apparent or easy way to pick Warlock with a Paladin subclass, or a Paladin with a Warlock subclass...
Being reformed is a completely different use-case. The whole idea is to be able to access both some Paladin abilities and some Warlock abilities at the same time.
So perhaps a better way to rephrase my question would be:
Have any of you seen any good dualclassing rules (per Mephista's distiction, above)?
That is, rules that doesn't create new classes. Rules that specifically allow you to meld the existing classes into, what, 11x12/2=66 new classes.
CapnZapp
Legend
Cheapskate!my $0.02.
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