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D&D 5E the dex warrior - why make a strength based one?

pming

Legend
Hiya!

edit: Just to be clear, I consider the root of the problem to be the addition of dex to ranged damage

*shrug* We've never had/seen a problem with 5e regarding Str or Dex based fighters. With 5e, it seems to have a very heavy slant towards 1e's attitude with regards to "power escalation"; that is to say, "It all balances out in the end". But I do have to point out that we don't play with Feats or Multiclassing or any of the stuff from online UA articles/tweets...so there's that edge we have over others who do use such things.

As for your Edit...I guess you don't have to worry about it now then, huh? ;) Just house rule that Dex doesn't add to ranged damage. Problem solved. :)

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

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Corwin

Explorer
Sorry but no.
Sorry but yes.


Most published adventures are so easy most groups can complete them regardless of build. That should not prevent us from having a fruitful discussion about "choice X is twice as good as choice Y" decision points.
Its double now? Wow, twice as good is huge!

Adventure difficulty level isn't an useful metric on anything really.
Which adventure are you talking about?

That is, the fact you can create a Dwarf Axe Fighter that completes the published adventure campaigns, says nothing about my argument: that this is a severely inferior build choice given how little you gain in return for giving up them twin 120 ft shortswords (that is, Crossbow Expert), and archery in general.
You miss the whole issue so completely, I'm not certain there is a way back for you. Did you want to play a dwarf axe fighter? Did you have fun being a gruff, stocky brute in heavy armor, with a big axe? Did you make it through the adventure? If your answers were yes, there is no meaningful metric that can qualify your choices as inferior. I'm at loss as to how anyone wanting to play such a character would benefit from being crossbow expert focused.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
But that only detracts from one simple truth: WotC dropped the ball here. They probably just wanted to cater to the special snowflake crowd who needs their dex heroes, but in doing so they forgot about the fundamental assumptions of the game and the genre.
Yeah, we get it, you don't like WotC.

Your attitude doesn't change the facts (all 11 or 12 of 'em), but I feel it's making them harder to get across to any reasonable gamers (if there is such a thing) that may be reading.

PS. But thanks for finding lost AoOs as an eleventh lost restriction.
No problem. It seemed to me to be the most obvious one.

Most published adventures are so easy most groups can complete them regardless of build. That should not prevent us from having a fruitful discussion about "choice X is twice as good as choice Y" decision points.

Adventure difficulty level isn't an useful metric on anything really.
Nor is the CR used to build 'em. But that's getting pretty far afield. Sure, if you pull all the complexity of D&D into it, you can obscure almost any imbalance. But, the OP is pretty clearly a narrow comparison between two fighters - so their ability to gank anything in the MM in 12 seconds, or their being overshadowed by casters, or incompetent out of combat, or affected by the length of the 'adventuring' day, or whatever, can all be put to one side.

That is, the fact you can create a Dwarf Axe Fighter that completes the published adventure campaigns, says nothing about my argument: that this is a severely inferior build choice given how little you gain in return for giving up them twin 120 ft shortswords (that is, Crossbow Expert), and archery in general.
You could probably play a MM-standard 1/8th CR Kobold and tag along on an adventure path, 'contributing meaningfully' to the party along the way.
 
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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Sorry but yes.



Its double now? Wow, twice as good is huge!


Which adventure are you talking about?


You miss the whole issue so completely, I'm not certain there is a way back for you. Did you want to play a dwarf axe fighter? Did you have fun being a gruff, stocky brute in heavy armor, with a big axe? Did you make it through the adventure? If your answers were yes, there is no meaningful metric that can qualify your choices as inferior. I'm at loss as to how anyone wanting to play such a character would benefit from being crossbow expert focused.
I am unfortunately on a smartphone at the moment so I can't edit down the quote to the specific part that I want to address "did you have fun playing the dwarf".

For some people, feeling their character is inefficient and not pulling their weight can ruin their fun. This is why balance matters.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using EN World mobile app
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
This was not really a thread that needed to be necro'd, was it? More badwrongfunning about game balance and dismissing the idea that people will play the characters they want to play regardless of a potential minor decrease in efficacy. "How dare game developers ignore perfect balance in their game system!" "Melee is a trap option exclusively for suckers!"

What I'm reading are a lot of posts by people whose personal playstyle heavily emphasizes gameplay (and specifically combat) mechanics and character balance who have identified an actual, honest-to-god issue with the game balance as design (you really can't refuse to acknowledge it exists, it clearly does, though I'm not convinced it's as... pronounced as some here have proclaimed) and who have shared their personal fixes to the problem... and that's awesome. Seriously, it's great.

Again, I don't really see it as a problem worth fixing myself, but that has a lot to do with the way my friends and I play the game. I've DMed melee PCs and ranged PCs, often at the same time no less, and nobody felt like their character was inefficient or not pulling their weight. I've also DMed (and played myself) characters that were purposefully underdeveloped in the combat pillar and instead emphasized the other pillars. There's not really anything wrong with that either. D&D may not be all things to all people but it is still a lot of things to a lot of people.

On the other hand, some of these blame justifications are just completely asinine, and in some cases genuinely offensive ("if only it weren't for those... girl gamers!!! <shakes fist>"???). Also bonus points for using the phrase "special snowflakes" as a pejorative without a single trace of irony. There's literally no point to such speculation (and that's all it is, baseless speculation) other than to purposefully upset and annoy others. It's divisive at best and edition warring at worst (try mentioning MMORPGs around a 4e fan to see how this kind of nonsense played out the last time).

I think it's possible to have a conversation (and even a disagreement) about game mechanics without blaming an entire group of people for ruining <insert edition here>. It's just unnecessary.
 

Hussar

Legend
I am unfortunately on a smartphone at the moment so I can't edit down the quote to the specific part that I want to address "did you have fun playing the dwarf".

For some people, feeling their character is inefficient and not pulling their weight can ruin their fun. This is why balance matters.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using EN World mobile app

The trick here is, what does "balance" actually mean?

To me, balance means that no given option is so obviously better than any other options that it makes no sense to choose those other options. I use Two Weapon Fighting in 2e as the best example - you doubled your damage output at the cost of 1 point of AC (the best a shield could give). There was absolutely no reason not to do this. Very, very imbalanced.

But between ranged and melee? Meh. This is not an issue I'm seeing. For one, you're giving up other options as well - no defensive style, for example, meaning that you cannot protect your allies. Plus, the ranged guy needs something in front of him or her. The argument that they are "just as good in melee" isn't really true. You're limited to finesse weapons (d8 rapier at best) and have no feats or abilities which add to your melee capablilities. Plus, if you actually play standard array PC's, you're limited to a 16 Dex, 15 STR (presuming human) at 1st level. You're going to be spending two feats to get that Dex to 20, 2 MORE feats to get those ranged feats - we're looking at very high level characters here.

But, I suspect that a lot of the problems are a combination of either die rolled/point buy characters and DM's who do not pay a lot of attention to tactics at the table. AP's are so easy anyone can succeed? Yup, that's true. If the DM constantly soft pedals encounters and doesn't bother to actually spend any time on tactics. Fair enough.

Difficulty in 5e isn't found in the mechanics. It's found in what you do with them.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
This was not really a thread that needed to be necro'd, was it? More badwrongfunning about game balance and dismissing the idea that people will play the characters they want to play regardless of a potential minor decrease in efficacy. "How dare game developers ignore perfect balance in their game system!" "Melee is a trap option exclusively for suckers!"
It is a tad ironic how uptight we can get over one fighter build edging out another by, what was it, 4 hps of damage, or one weapon edging out another by a half-point of average damage, when D&D has much more profound imbalances going on.

I guess it's just easy to measure.

What I'm reading are a lot of posts... have identified an actual, honest-to-god issue with the game balance as design (you really can't refuse to acknowledge it exists, it clearly does...) and who have shared their personal fixes to the problem...
And if we get to that point, and don't go too far beyond it, we're fine, really. Here's a balance issue, can we get past the reflexive denial to talk about ways of dealing with? Can we now just go and apply whichever of those ways appeals, rather than campaigning to get WotC to force it on everyone like some sort of fanatical activists?

Seems like most threads never fight their way through the denial, or else they devolve into OneTrueWayism... or both, without ever hammering out any useful ideas.
Sometimes both, while generating a few good ideas that get lost in the morass.


The trick here is, what does "balance" actually mean?

To me, balance means that no given option is so obviously better than any other options that it makes no sense to choose those other options.
That's a logical, but pretty low bar. I prefer as many options as possible be 'viable' which is probably less cut-and-dried, and 'meaningful' which can be a tad subjective (meaningful to /someone/, somewhere, would be fine, really).

But between ranged and melee? Meh. This is not an issue I'm seeing.
It's certainly not to the point that melee is untenable. Ranged may edge out melee by the numbers, and be more flexible due to so many risks and restrictions having been removed, and the few remaining ones being removable with an (optional!) feat or two - but it's really as nothing compared to melee vs casting (nor ranged vs casting, for that matter).

For one, you're giving up other options as well - no defensive style, for example
Style is a choice in itself. Choosing any style gives up the others. If melee types got to choose two styles and ranged types only one, then you'd be giving something up...

Plus, the ranged guy needs something in front of him or her. The argument that they are "just as good in melee" isn't really true. You're limited to finesse weapons (d8 rapier at best) and have no feats or abilities which add to your melee capablilities.
In theory, a fighter's supposed to be able to throw his feats to non-combat pursuits without being unacceptably bad at combat, and, if you do have the right ranged feats, you can just keep shooting in melee, anyway...

Plus, if you actually play standard array PC's, you're limited to a 16 Dex, 15 STR (presuming human) at 1st level. You're going to be spending two feats to get that Dex to 20, 2 MORE feats to get those ranged feats - we're looking at very high level characters here.
STR and DEX are prettymuch even, there. A couple of killer feats, a 20, costs you the same and takes as long to mature, whether it's 20 DEX and SS/X-bow or 20 STR GWM/PAM.

AP's are so easy anyone can succeed?
Except where they're unaccountably lethal, sure. ;P

Difficulty in 5e isn't found in the mechanics. It's found in what you do with them.
You could say the same for balance:

Balance in 5e isn't found in the mechanics. It's found in what you do with them.
 

Corwin

Explorer
For some people, feeling their character is inefficient and not pulling their weight can ruin their fun.
Well, I suppose when hyperbole is made the rule of the day, its hard to argue with. I mean nobody wants to play a bunch of characters that are all half as effective* as that one guy over there! [That's right, I'm pointing at you, crossbow expert!!! You broken cheese-monkey who's whole goal in life is to ruin everyone else's fun!!!]

This is why balance matters.
I'll go ahead and ask once more on these forums for a definition of 'balance'. I don't have high hopes considering the lack of responses to my plethora of previous attempts at nailing that elusive term down. I'm betting the deliberate vagueness of the word, and the myriad ways in which it might be applied to TTRPGs, is part of the whole trick of using it to justify "identifying" so many different "problems".


[*"Effective"/"efficient" being a couple more great boogeymen of mercurial words that can have so many different meanings in this hobby.]
 

Libramarian

Adventurer
On the other hand, some of these blame justifications are just completely asinine, and in some cases genuinely offensive ("if only it weren't for those... girl gamers!!! <shakes fist>"???). Also bonus points for using the phrase "special snowflakes" as a pejorative without a single trace of irony. There's literally no point to such speculation (and that's all it is, baseless speculation) other than to purposefully upset and annoy others. It's divisive at best and edition warring at worst (try mentioning MMORPGs around a 4e fan to see how this kind of nonsense played out the last time).

I think it's possible to have a conversation (and even a disagreement) about game mechanics without blaming an entire group of people for ruining <insert edition here>. It's just unnecessary.
Are we allowed to blame the group of people who were the designers of 5e? That's the group I was blaming.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I would think that would be a lot if combats only last a few rounds.

Still, I have been playing without feats (though I plan on allowing them in the newest campaign). I hate balance gated behind feats, and I hate the use of specific "builds" to achieve balance. Feats and feat builds don't really address the issues I have with ranged combat, though everyone taking polearm master might work for others.

I never claimed it wasn't significant. The point I was making was that it wasn't a legitimate comparison to look at numbers of a polearm master class getting the reaction attack every round.
 

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