D&D 5E (2014) Why FR Is "Hated"

[jasper]

Um they don't watch ta tas and dragons. Skip the Thor movies. Only watch Gotham. And never Pray to Saint Paul Bear Winsdor Patron saint of Universeity of Alabama in London. "Roll EAGLE!"

 

[Lanefan]

Yep. If that player insisted on wanting to play a cleric I'd point them to the deities in the 5e PHB that aren't gods.

Now there's a semantic that somewhat bugs me, in that in common usage "deity" and "god" or "goddess" mean pretty much the same thing; with "deity" simply being a handy genderless term.

About the only game-related distinction that matters is between those divine entities that can grant spells (this in-game is what defines a god/deity for me) and those that cannot or will not (these are something else...immortals, perhaps).

Lan-"divinity: a fine career goal for any adventurer"-efan

 

[Lanefan]

In a polytheistic D&D setting, no idolatry exists, so it's not possible to pretend to commit it.

Actually it could exist, I suppose, if any one of all the various deities decided to proscribe his/her followers from not just worshipping any other deity but even acknowledging their existence. In a Greek-like setting I could see Ares trying to pull this stunt, for example; and it wouldn't be a big reach for some extremist Dwarven deity to go this route.

Lan-"never mind that most of the divine-level devils likely start from this basis and get worse from there"-efan

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Now there's a semantic that somewhat bugs me, in that in common usage "deity" and "god" or "goddess" mean pretty much the same thing; with "deity" simply being a handy genderless term.

About the only game-related distinction that matters is between those divine entities that can grant spells (this in-game is what defines a god/deity for me) and those that cannot or will not (these are something else...immortals, perhaps).

Lan-"divinity: a fine career goal for any adventurer"-efan

In 5e game terms, a cleric's "deity" is the source of a their power. It can be a god, but the term is also used for philosophies and religions not based on a god or goddess.

 

[Aldarc]

We should probably be clear of our terms here, particularly when we speak of idolatry. Idolatry is not worshipping other deities. It's not a prohibition from worshipping other deities. It does not even mean that idols are false gods.

Idoltatry is the veneration of cultic images, particularly statues, idols, figurines, and the like, often with the belief that (1) the idols are somehow representative or an extension of a deity, and (2) there is an efficacy in this veneration. Basically there is some 'power' in the idol that generally connects the worshiper with the power/deity that the idol represents.

Idolatry is part and parcel for most polytheistic practice. Cultic images exist and they serve cultic purposes. You go to a Temple of Zeus and you see a statue of Zeus. You worship and provide sacrifices or offerings there. You may have small figurines in your household shrine of Zeus, Hera, Athena, Hestia, and a collection of local minor deities and family patron deities that you turn to on most day-to-day needs. The image is a sort of spiritual anchor/medium between you and the deity.

In the context of the biblical texts (and the history of "Abrahamic monotheism"), the issue of idolatry, polytheism, and the efficacy of all involved is incredibly complicated, though biblical scholars, historians, archaeologists, etc. increasingly recognize that the hegemonic emergence of Abrahamic monotheism happened at a far later point than is implied in the text. We often associate idolatry with the worship of false gods, but these are actually two separate theological matters, which are both separate from the issue of iconoclasm. When we look at the Decalogue/Ten Commandments, we can even see that declaration of monotheism/henotheism and not making graven images/idols are, gramatically, two separate imperatives.

I only mention this because I feel obligated due to the "loosey-goosey" use of terms. So I wanted a chance for us to establish some clarity of terms and additional background info, and I really really don't want to get into a debate about this. Please. And thank you.

 

[SkidAce]

In 5e game terms, a cleric's "deity" is the source of a their power. It can be a god, but the term is also used for philosophies and religions not based on a god or goddess.

I will disagree.

If a philosophy is the source of their power, then the source of their power is not a deity.

IMO deity has a specific meaning. I of course agree that they CAN and DO have varying sources, many of which are not gods (nor deities...)

 

[MackMcMacky]

I am a monotheist and I have played D&D for decades without any concern to the existence of pantheons in virtually every milieu I've played in. I am actually more reluctant to play in a game where a DM would want to use what I consider the REAL religion. It just feels as if it is insufficiently reverent.

I still have plenty of good reasons to dislike FR.

 

[cbwjm]

Yes, but this a collection of the best of the dumb reasons.

Give it time and I'm sure that [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] will create a "Survivor - Dumbest reason for hating the Forgotten Realms" thread.

 

[Maxperson]

Just to nip this before the misunderstanding blooms.

The claim is not that the character is pretending to commit idolatry, but that the player, by pretending their character "worships" someone other than the God of the Torah/Bible/Quran is pretending to commit idolatry. Therefore if this is a concern for the player, any divine in the DnD world unless it is an exact match for one of the three big books is a risk of idolatry.

At least, this is my understanding of their concern

There's no misunderstanding. Not one D&D "god" is trying to be anything other than some text in a game. It quite literally cannot be idolatry without there being "gods" trying to be a god in the real world. Pretending that you have a piece of text following another piece of text that isn't a "god" is not pretending at idolatry. His concern is unfounded.

 

[Maxperson]

Actually it could exist, I suppose, if any one of all the various deities decided to proscribe his/her followers from not just worshipping any other deity but even acknowledging their existence. In a Greek-like setting I could see Ares trying to pull this stunt, for example; and it wouldn't be a big reach for some extremist Dwarven deity to go this route.

Lan-"never mind that most of the divine-level devils likely start from this basis and get worse from there"-efan

You'd have to change the fundamental assumptions about the D&D pantheons, though. Even then, you still couldn't commit or pretend at idolatry. Your PC could I suppose, but not you the player. Even those gods with names mirroring real world mythologies don't mirror them exactly and don't pretend to be those real world gods. Ares the D&D god of war is not the Ares of the real world Greek mythology. He's just an approximation that doesn't try to be a real world god. A player can't be an idolater by pretending to follow a non-god.