D&D 5E What does balance mean to you?

DaveDash

Explorer
And I guarantee you can't, because the players don't dictate or control the game world in D&D. There's this person called the DM who does. Anyone who thinks they can "break the game" as a player usually only plays with a certain playstyle of a DM, and then they have to drink a big bottle of humble juice when they play in a game that doesn't cater to their playstyle. So if we're talking about guarantees here, I guarantee that you can do whatever build you want, and you will not "break the game" in my sessions, and that's with me being fair and not doing anything out of the ordinary to go out of my way to hinder your PC over anyone else.

You can "break" the game.

We had one player purposely do this in our game to antagonise our DM. He purposely built a character using a lot of features from SCAG combined with the PHB that resulted in a character that outshone the rest of us in most pillars of the game.

Unfortunately his annoying attitude came to a head before that and he's no longer part of our game, but there are combinations of classes and feats within the rules that can make very powerful characters in all pillars of the game, and not all DMs are as rules savy as the players at their tables.

DMs have the power to retcon things at a later date sure, but a solid rules system helps prevent such things in the first place. Fortunately 5e for IS very well balanced for the most part, and the number of problem combinations can be counted on one (or two) hands.
 
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Sacrosanct

Legend
Irrelevant when talking about system balance. System balance is independent of DM fiat, not reliant upon it.

Not true at all. DMs are the ones running the game. You can't play D&D without a DM (unless it's a computer game where balance is important because you're limited to a predetermined amount of code). And since so much of the game is subjective, whatever "balance" is, is completely dependent on how the game is run. You optimize for high DPR? Congrats, too bad there isn't any fighting going on in this game. Or the combat that does occur is completely different than what you optimized for. Or any other number of reasons that can come up with a game with literally an infinite amount of scenarios that can happen in an TTRPG.



You can "break" the game.

We had one player purposely do this in our game to antagonise our DM. He purposely built a character using a lot of features from SCAG combined with the PHB that resulted in a character that outshone the rest of us in most pillars of the game..

Maybe someone can break that game in your group, but that is not a universal truth. For one, what is "outshone the rest of us" mean? A +1 difference? +2? +3? Everyone has a different bar they set for when the feel someone else is clearly dominating. And others will never reach that point because they don't view the game as a competition between players where everyone has to be the same. Some people are perfectly OK with another player dominating in an aspect while their PC doesn't. And I have never, ever, in 35 years, seen a player be able to build a PC that "clearly outshines" all other PCs in all of the other pillars, let alone ever seeing that happen in 5e.

So you may consider a minor difference to be unbalanced, while I don't at all. Completely subjective, and is why you can't say that in general, a player can "break the game" in 5e. Especially when there is a literal infinite amount of tools at the DM's disposal in a regular game that would prevent that.
 

Argyle King

Legend
Not true at all. DMs are the ones running the game. You can't play D&D without a DM (unless it's a computer game where balance is important because you're limited to a predetermined amount of code). And since so much of the game is subjective, whatever "balance" is, is completely dependent on how the game is run. You optimize for high DPR? Congrats, too bad there isn't any fighting going on in this game. Or the combat that does occur is completely different than what you optimized for. Or any other number of reasons that can come up with a game with literally an infinite amount of scenarios that can happen in an TTRPG.





Maybe someone can break that game in your group, but that is not a universal truth. For one, what is "outshone the rest of us" mean? A +1 difference? +2? +3? Everyone has a different bar they set for when the feel someone else is clearly dominating. And others will never reach that point because they don't view the game as a competition between players where everyone has to be the same. Some people are perfectly OK with another player dominating in an aspect while their PC doesn't. And I have never, ever, in 35 years, seen a player be able to build a PC that "clearly outshines" all other PCs in all of the other pillars, let alone ever seeing that happen in 5e.

So you may consider a minor difference to be unbalanced, while I don't at all. Completely subjective, and is why you can't say that in general, a player can "break the game" in 5e. Especially when there is a literal infinite amount of tools at the DM's disposal in a regular game that would prevent that.


I'd be open to hearing how you've handled certain things over the years. With those success rates over that length of time, it sounds as though I could learn how to improve what I'm doing.

I remember being in 3.5 games in which the guy playing the wizard would intentionally not do anything during the first round of combat; he'd do so as a courtesy to the rest of us so that other people would get a chance to play the game. Outside of combat? The same character easily handled problems in other pillars as well.

I also remember my first 4th Edition campaign. I played an Orb Wizard. Being new to the edition, I wasn't aware of how ridiculously good my character would be (prior to errata which changed the class). Starting at level 1, I could cast Sleep and make it unlikely that the targets would ever wake up. Not many levels after that, I could literally make it impossible for my targets to ever save against what I was casting. I actually stopped playing the character because it was so ridiculously broken that it wasn't even fun for me to play.

I know not everyone is familiar with 4th, so I'll explain the basic idea behind why it was broken. In 4th, saving against something was a d20 roll and getting above a 10. The orb wizard had an ability which gave penalties to that roll. It was easily possible (without putting in a lot of effort) to make those penalties bad enough that the target would never save. Combined with something like Sleep, it was possible to make everything in an encounter become Unconscious/Helpless without any chance of waking up. If you really wanted to make things ridiculous, there was an item called Orb of Ultimate Imposition. It gave you the ability to decide that -if you actually missed with the initial attack or somehow a creature miraculously did save- a target took the effect of a power regardless of hitting. So, in theory, after around level 12 or so (and maybe sooner) my character could have fought some of the gods and demon lords (who were near level 30 or beyond) and had a somewhat reasonable chance of winning. "Oh? I missed my attack against Orcus? Well, I've decided he needs to save against my power anyway, and he has penalties out the wahzoo to the save. Errata later changed how the orb wizard worked, but I feel that how it was right out of the PHB1 is an example of what I'd consider to be broken.

In 5th Edition, there isn't anything I'd consider to be broken in that context. However, there are some options which I feel are significantly stronger than others and stronger in multiple pillars of play.
 

dropbear8mybaby

Banned
Banned
Not true at all.

Your arguments are so absurd that I genuinely can't argue against them. So how about a counter argument? A balanced system is one where the DM doesn't have to spend all their time and energy and effort in counteracting or counterbalancing the player character's imbalanced abilities.

I await your next ridiculously illogical response.
 

DaveDash

Explorer
Not true at all. DMs are the ones running the game. You can't play D&D without a DM (unless it's a computer game where balance is important because you're limited to a predetermined amount of code). And since so much of the game is subjective, whatever "balance" is, is completely dependent on how the game is run. You optimize for high DPR? Congrats, too bad there isn't any fighting going on in this game. Or the combat that does occur is completely different than what you optimized for. Or any other number of reasons that can come up with a game with literally an infinite amount of scenarios that can happen in an TTRPG.





Maybe someone can break that game in your group, but that is not a universal truth. For one, what is "outshone the rest of us" mean? A +1 difference? +2? +3? Everyone has a different bar they set for when the feel someone else is clearly dominating. And others will never reach that point because they don't view the game as a competition between players where everyone has to be the same. Some people are perfectly OK with another player dominating in an aspect while their PC doesn't. And I have never, ever, in 35 years, seen a player be able to build a PC that "clearly outshines" all other PCs in all of the other pillars, let alone ever seeing that happen in 5e.

So you may consider a minor difference to be unbalanced, while I don't at all. Completely subjective, and is why you can't say that in general, a player can "break the game" in 5e. Especially when there is a literal infinite amount of tools at the DM's disposal in a regular game that would prevent that.

Definitely not "minor" differences at all.

There are combinations in 5e that can really outshine other classes. This particular character was a Greenflame Blade Bladesong / Arcane Trickster who ended up with nearly advantage in every attack, damage in the 40-50 range at around level 11 from basic attacks, best AC in the group, and 20+ Minimum rolls on a ton of skills due to Rogue abilities, not to mention survivability and manoeuvrability that comes from cunning action, improved evasion, uncanny dodge, etc. He was the best combat character, the best exploration character, and pretty darn good social as well. He is also a DM who knows the rules inside and out and purposely set out to make a broken character reasons I won't go into.
He outshone a lot of us by more than just +1 or +2 mate, he was doing 3-4 times more damage than my War Cleric as example, and it caused a lot of angst between players and the DM.

All this was Raw, legit, perfectly within the rules. No homebrew, wotc official module, official books.

There are other combinations as well that can be problematic. We've had a character go from about 20-30 DPD to over 90DPR spread out over three rounds at levels 11-14 (Fighter/Rogue Assassin) when he took sharpshooter somewhere around level 12+.
He trivialised the poor DMs climatic dragon fights in Tyranny of Dragons, since without modification they're not equipped to handle this kind of firepower. Greater invisibility (from the Bard) plus sharpshooter plus haste (from the Sorcerer) from extreme range = good night.

Yes, you can "DM" around these things but after a certain point you're just putting a band aid solution over something that's inherently broken in the game, and in my games there are certain house rules to certain classes and feats because of this.
 
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Sacrosanct

Legend
I'd be open to hearing how you've handled certain things over the years. With those success rates over that length of time, it sounds as though I could learn how to improve what I'm doing.

I remember being in 3.5 games in which the guy playing the wizard would intentionally not do anything during the first round of combat; he'd do so as a courtesy to the rest of us so that other people would get a chance to play the game. Outside of combat? The same character easily handled problems in other pillars as well. .

Angel summoner/BMX bandit is usually the first example people give of imbalanced PC classes, and I will admit I only played 3e off and on (I stuck with AD&D). That being said, what I've found almost exclusively in these scenarios is that certain parts of the game are glossed over in the favor of the caster. Notably things like preparing spells, components, and spell interruption. Even in 3e, you still can only prepare a limited number of spells (unless you were a sorcerer, in which you were limited in other ways on spell choice). There is no way a player can prepare the perfect spells for all of the scenarios in that session. Their PC simply doesn't have enough slots to learn all the perfect combat spells and interaction spells and exploration spells, let alone how would the player know what to prepare. Then even if they did, do they have all or the required components? And do the monsters ever attack him or her when casting a spell in combat to interrupt them? And how does the player know how many encounters are going to be expected (meaning, how do they know how many spells they can cast that encounter and how many should they keep in reserve due to the unknown)? IME, what I've seen is parties cater to the caster's needs even if it goes against the natural flow of the game. I.e., "Well, we need to rest because I blew all of my spells." If you're doing that, then no wonder casters seem so powerful, because you're placing them as more important as anyone else by catering to them. Not to mention another thing I see a lot: PCs being able to rest whenever they want, AKA the DM pausing the game world when PCs decide to rest, which shouldn't happen.

From what I know of your brief scenario, what I have seen almost always happen is that the player is using out of character knowledge to know what they are going to expect during that session that their PC never would, and selects spells based on that. *OR*, they ignore spell prep altogether and cast from their entire list of spells. They also demand the party cater to their resting needs as well, and almost never use components or spell interruption.

I don't play 4e, so I can't comment on that. However, I hear a lot how 4e was the most balanced game mechanically, so I imagine there aren't a lot of people claiming it's game breaking.

Definitely not "minor" differences at all.

There are combinations in 5e that can really outshine other classes. This particular character was a Greenflame Blade Bladesong / Arcane Trickster who ended up with nearly advantage in every attack, damage in the 40-50 range at around level 11 from basic attacks, best AC in the group, and 20+ Minimum rolls on a ton of skills due to Rogue abilities, not to mention survivability and manoeuvrability that comes from cunning action, improved evasion, uncanny dodge, etc. He was the best combat character, the best exploration character, and pretty darn good social as well. He is also a DM who knows the rules inside and out and purposely set out to make a broken character reasons I won't go into.
He outshone a lot of us by more than just +1 or +2 mate, he was doing 3-4 times more damage than my War Cleric as example, and it caused a lot of angst between players and the DM.

All this was Raw, legit, perfectly within the rules. No homebrew, wotc official module, official books.

There are other combinations as well that can be problematic. We've had a character go from about 20-30 DPD to over 90DPR spread out over three rounds at levels 11-14 (Fighter/Rogue Assassin) when he took sharpshooter somewhere around level 12+.
He trivialised the poor DMs climatic dragon fights in Tyranny of Dragons, since without modification they're not equipped to handle this kind of firepower. Greater invisibility (from the Bard) plus sharpshooter plus haste (from the Sorcerer) from extreme range = good night.

Yes, you can "DM" around these things but after a certain point you're just putting a band aid solution over something that's inherently broken in the game, and in my games there are certain house rules to certain classes and feats because of this.

IME, whenever someone has to wait until level 11, or 12, or whatever to reach their "uber build", they are lacking quite a bit all the way up until that point because while everyone else is getting extra feats, attacks, etc, they are still struggling to get to their multiclass requirements. And since playing from level 1 to level 12 is the largest amount of time most gamers play, I don't see huge issues with someone being behind everyone else for 75% of their gaming to be better at 25% of their gaming time. Similar to AD&D and magic users.

That all being said, without knowing more exact details, PCs that are built towards maximizing DPR are much weaker in other areas. So if your style is to focus on combat way more than any other pillar, it's no wonder why the combat DPR build seems to be overpowered. I don't know their exact builds, but I'd be curious to know why they could be so much better at interaction as well as everything else over every other PC. Your cleric should be way better as things like WIS saves and battlefield control.

Also, like I replied in this post above, it seems as though the party is catering to that player. That PC requires the bard to cast spells on him, and the sorcerer to cast spells on him, etc. I'm guessing you probably also rest when that player says, "Well, I'm out of my bonus AC uses for my bladesinger ability." When you're catering to a PC, and the other PCs are buffing him, that's not really a balance problem of the mechanics. That's a behavior issue of the players. I.e., you're choosing to make him super uber by helping him out. Nothing wrong with that of course if that's the tactics you want, but you can't really get upset at a problem that you had a hand in creating yourself as a group.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Your arguments are so absurd that I genuinely can't argue against them. So how about a counter argument? A balanced system is one where the DM doesn't have to spend all their time and energy and effort in counteracting or counterbalancing the player character's imbalanced abilities.

I await your next ridiculously illogical response.

Drop the attitude.
 

shoak1

Banned
Banned
Not true at all. DMs are the ones running the game. You can't play D&D without a DM (unless it's a computer game where balance is important because you're limited to a predetermined amount of code). And since so much of the game is subjective, whatever "balance" is, is completely dependent on how the game is run. You optimize for high DPR? Congrats, too bad there isn't any fighting going on in this game. Or the combat that does occur is completely different than what you optimized for. Or any other number of reasons that can come up with a game with literally an infinite amount of scenarios that can happen in an TTRPG.
This is an example of what frustrates me and other gamists. The "DM is subjective and everyone plays different" argument is a nihilist excuse for poor balance. Just because some guys play all combat encounters, or some play all roleplaying encounters, or some DMs throw all ranged attacks at people, doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't balance the game. Balance is done for the norm/mean/average and is on a sliding scale of subjectiveness as you narrow/expand your focus. For instance, when you narrow the scope down to balancing combat stuff against combat stuff, the subjectiveness narrows as well. If you have 2 feats, one of which gives +3 with swords, and the other +1 with swords (and they don't stack) it is entirely factual - and not the least bit subjective - to say the two feats are imbalanced against each other.

There are many, many of us that play D and D as a tactical challenge. Combat abilities can and must be balanced between each other to have a good game. Of course a silly DM can throw a monkey wrench into things by having all ranged combats or other ridiculous scenarios,and of course there are some people don't have combat encounters - but that doesn't then render balance pointless or subjective from a design view - it just renders it pointless to those people. And if you are one of those people, why would you argue against modifications? It doesn't impact you anyways!!!
 
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steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Well, most of us do all like to presume our own preferences, choices and styles, are somehow equally appreciated by "many, many of us" and/or somehow universal or objectively true.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I remember being in 3.5 games in which the guy playing the wizard would intentionally not do anything during the first round of combat; he'd do so as a courtesy to the rest of us so that other people would get a chance to play the game. Outside of combat? The same character easily handled problems in other pillars as well.

I also remember my first 4th Edition campaign. I played an Orb Wizard. Being new to the edition, I wasn't aware of how ridiculously good my character would be ... Errata later changed how the orb wizard worked, but I feel that how it was right out of the PHB1 is an example of what I'd consider to be broken.
That's an interesting contrast, actually, and illustrates the different scopes of imbalance. The 3.x wizard was Tier 1, able to dominate in virtually any challenge, and the classes in general were profoundly imbalanced, spread over 6 tiers. It was too deep and pervasive a thing to fix with a few house rules or errata, even had the prevailing zietgeist been open to such.
In cintrast, the 4e classes were robustly balanced from basic design up, and the wizard, though arguably at the top of the heap, stii, was atop a relatively flat heap. Rather, the novel save mechanic had initial bugs that could have done with some more playtesting. One spell, one class feature, a feat & item all stressing that one weakness, and you had a broken combo...
Ironically, in spite of the 'orbizard' being possible in a basic form at release, the 4e wizard was decried as having been nerfed into the ground....

... of course, it had been nerfed relative to 3.5 (and would have to be considered so relative to 5e), it was just still pretty breakable.

Other good examples of imbalances from early 4e were blade cascade and the fey charger build. Both also 'updated' back into line fairly quickly.

An interesting difference among WotC editions has been the attitude towards errata. 3.x released errata slowly, and 3 5 was very nearly a bundle if much-needed errata you had to pay for. There was also an attitude in the RAW-obsessed community that errata was both an admission of failure and an unwarranted nerf of legitimate RAW builds, to which players were entitled. 3.x also never fixed combos that might be deemed broken in any other ed, perhaps because they were intentional 'rewards for system mastery.'
4e cynically called errata 'updates' I suppose out of fear of that stigma, but was quick to issue them to fix balance and mechanical problems.
5e barely issues errata, at all - The DM is empowered to fix any system issue they can, and expected to change/overrule things as a matter of course, anyway.

I suppose you could say that 3.x was committed to imbalance, 4e committed to balance, and 5e just has a fear of commitment...

;)
 
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