D&D 5E Do you miss attribute minimums/maximums?

[Mecheon]

Wait, you're arguing that men are better than women in real life, because we are stronger? I disagree with that. If you aren't arguing that men are better than women in real life due to us being stronger, then it is not sexist in D&D to only give men the strength bonus. It's not sexist to model fact.

That said, you could give women a con bonus. Women deal with pain better, survive longer without water, etc.

The difference in the genders only comes into play at a high end level of specific stuff. Like, say, Olympic weightlifting

If Olympic weightlifting is a prominent feature in your game, then you can worry about putting in differences between genders

If its not, then its not 'simulationist' to put it in at that level and is, in fact, sexist.

I incidentally have another way to sort this one out. Its called asking GMs who put stuff like that in to fight a woman of my choosing. The fact I'm picking an MMA fighter to fight them should be irrelevant according to you, right?

 

[guachi]

I despise the kind of people who think discrimination based on sex,colour and/or ethnicity is a fun thing to introduce, they are the same kind of people who drag humanity lower each day and make my soul just cringe at the thought of them ever procreating. /endrant

You wouldn't like Mystara at all, then. It's chock full of all these kinds of discrimination. Except maybe color. I can't think of anyone who discriminates on color.

 

[Obryn]

More of this failed False Equivalence? When will you guys learn that not all things are equally unrealistic. The metals and dragons are explained by in game lore, so they are not at all unrealistic in the fantasy setting. Giants I'll give you. They aren't explained any more than halflings are.

If you are arguing that dragons are more realistic than strong women - lore or no lore - then I think you have your priorities mixed up.

Dragon's aren't explained in the game lore in any way that - if you dig deep enough - doesn't boil down to "Uh, this is a fantasy world and not Earth, 'kay?" The game can't hold your hand and walk you down every single path that breaks from the real world.

 

[Maxperson]

The difference in the genders only comes into play at a high end level of specific stuff. Like, say, Olympic weightlifting

It's present at all levels. The average man is far stronger than the average woman. That is best represented, if you are going to represent it, by giving men a bonus to allow for it to happen in game.

If its not, then its not 'simulationist' to put it in at that level and is, in fact, sexist.

False for the reasons above. It's a fact that men are in general stronger than women. It's not just a world class issue.

 

[Maxperson]

If you are arguing that dragons are more realistic than strong women - lore or no lore - then I think you have your priorities mixed up.

And that ladies and gentlemen is a Strawman. I did not say that at all. I said that the in game reality makes dragons realistic in the game and that halflings are not explained in the same way.

Dragon's aren't explained in the game lore in any way that - if you dig deep enough - doesn't boil down to "Uh, this is a fantasy world and not Earth, 'kay?" The game can't hold your hand and walk you down every single path that breaks from the real world.

There is prior lore that says you are wrong.

 

[Mecheon]

It's present at all levels. The average man is far stronger than the average woman. That is best represented, if you are going to represent it, by giving men a bonus to allow for it to happen in game.

False for the reasons above. It's a fact that men are in general stronger than women. It's not just a world class issue.

'Far' stronger? The living heck are you talking about? I'm going to have to ask for some sources to back that up, cause, uh, nope?

Mind as an Australian I know the entire spectrum of women from 'Frail old lady' to 'Athletic go-getter' so I'm curious what you're defining as 'average' in this?

Now unfortunately as you've now said its a 'fact', you're going to have to obtain some peer-reviewed papers about this so we can see the exact difference and the exact measurement you define a level of strength to be. I'm genuinely curious what you consider the exact measurement of a point of strength to be

(don't actually do this as you will only dig your grave deeper and deeper as I basically tear simulationists to shreds, laughing at their attempts to model real life in a series based off not modelling real life in the slightest and drinking the tears of their agony as I point out impossibilities. I'll be back tomorrow to see if you've made the terrible idea of calling my bluff here)

 

[Obryn]

And that ladies and gentlemen is a Strawman. I did not say that at all. I said that the in game reality makes dragons realistic in the game and that halflings are not explained in the same way.

There is prior lore that says you are wrong.

Oh, the first sentence was just playing on your statement that "not all things are equally unrealistic" and then proceeded to laud the reasonability of dragons. It was a hilarious juxtaposition, from where I'm sitting.

Again, "lore" is the emperor's new clothes. It's a series of decisions about what will be in the game world, which all come down to "because we wanted it to be in the game world."

 

[guachi]

They've done studies on, for example, grip strength. I guess because it's fairly easy to test.

The 50th percentile male is roughly as strong as the strongest elite female athlete. An average 70-year-old man has the same grip strength as the average 30-34-year-old woman (the highest category).

Grip strength is only one measure of athleticism but it's a good proxy for overall muscle strength.

I didn't even have to Google to know that grip strength is a major difference between the sexes as they've done a number of studies on it. I did have to google for specific numbers, though.

Here's the entirety of an abstract from the National Institute of Health. Relevant portions bolded for emphasis.

Hand-grip strength has been identified as one limiting factor for manual lifting and carrying loads. To obtain epidemiologically relevant hand-grip strength data for pre-employment screening, we determined maximal isometric hand-grip strength in 1,654 healthy men and 533 healthy women aged 20-25 years. Moreover, to assess the potential margins for improvement in hand-grip strength of women by training, we studied 60 highly trained elite female athletes from sports known to require high hand-grip forces (judo, handball). Maximal isometric hand-grip force was recorded over 15 s using a handheld hand-grip ergometer. Biometric parameters included lean body mass (LBM) and hand dimensions. Mean maximal hand-grip strength showed the expected clear difference between men (541 N) and women (329 N). Less expected was the gender related distribution of hand-grip strength: 90% of females produced less force than 95% of males. Though female athletes were significantly stronger (444 N) than their untrained female counterparts, this value corresponded to only the 25th percentile of the male subjects. Hand-grip strength was linearly correlated with LBM. Furthermore, both relative hand-grip strength parameters (F (max)/body weight and F (max)/LBM) did not show any correlation to hand dimensions. The present findings show that the differences in hand-grip strength of men and women are larger than previously reported. An appreciable difference still remains when using lean body mass as reference. The results of female national elite athletes even indicate that the strength level attainable by extremely high training will rarely surpass the 50th percentile of untrained or not specifically trained men.

 

[Obryn]

I think we can just posit that average men and average women have different muscle mass as populations on earth right now.

Likewise we can point at exceptional individuals who greatly exceed those averages.

The question of, "what is worthwhile to model in pretend elf games, set in fantasyland, with high degrees of abstraction all over the rule-set and any number of fantastic features" is a separate question entirely. (e: And also why "averages" are important when every player character is an individual.)

We don't need scientific studies for this discussion because it's one of game and setting design, with a specific eye towards the kinds of characters players will have the opportunity to play.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[Sadras]

So it's natural to ask why human sexual dimorphism is so damn important that it gets a write-up in your house-rules, just as it's natural to ask what kinds of effects it will have on the players and the game.

I find limitations/variations are interesting when one is making character creation choices.

The difference between playing a halfling who might find himself submerged within the sewers, given his hight, but might be less visible as opposed to a half-orc who will have no issue with the level of the waste but will be evidently noticable.

Same with the difference between playing a female and male character in a predominantly patriarchal/matriarchal setting and the challenges/social misconceptions that may come into play. Adding a limitation/variation in abilities and other dynamics may come into play.

If everyone is stock standard - moves 30 feet, same ability limitations, same knowledge, same skills - I find that less interesting. I find choice should matter. It matters in race, it matters in class, it matters in backgrounds, it matters in the mico-elements of the character creation (feats or stat boost, skill selection, subclass choice) - why is it so difficult to fathom that some people prefer it should matter when it comes to selecting one character's sex?

Nah, it's like the existence of giants (not physically possible with human-style frames), dragons (really couldn't fly), unearthly metals (love to see them on the periodic table), and the like. It's a part of the game world that you've decided to cordon off behind a wall called 'suspension of disbelief.'

So can my male dragonborn give birth to an elf? Suspension of disbelief right? Everything goes since its all bs?