D&D 5E Do you miss attribute minimums/maximums?

[guachi]

I want to further emphasize a point I initially missed when reading the abstract.

An appreciable difference still remains when using lean body mass as reference

In other words, a man who was 150 pounds of not-fat would, on average, have a higher grip strength than a woman who was 150 pounds of not-fat.

 

[Mecheon]

I think we can just posit that average men and average women have different muscle mass as populations on earth right now.

Likewise we can point at exceptional individuals who greatly exceed those averages.

The question of, "what is worthwhile to model in pretend elf games, set in fantasyland, with high degrees of abstraction all over the rule-set and any number of fantastic features" is a separate question entirely. (e: And also why "averages" are important when every player character is an individual.)

We don't need scientific studies for this discussion because it's one of game and setting design, with a specific eye towards the kinds of characters players will have the opportunity to play.

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(Logged in for one more post!)

You're absolutely correct in that it doesn't matter at this level.

But unfortunately RPGs have a horrible history of people putting this stuff into games for, quite often, terrible reasons under the banner of 'realism' . And then the other problem is now its being labeled as 'simulationist' which is a terrible thing to apply to D&D because D&D is terrible at being a simulation game. Its far too abstracted and when you try to make it more simulationist-y, it falls apart at the seams

If you want me to work out the maths for what one point of strength equals out when we take into account a hypothetical 19 to 20 gap and then retroactively apply it, that's exactly what's gonna happen if Max calls me out on my post. But that's a tomorrow thing,

 

[Sadras]

The difference in the genders only comes into play at a high end level of specific stuff. Like, say, Olympic weightlifting

If Olympic weightlifting is a prominent feature in your game, then you can worry about putting in differences between genders

If its not, then its not 'simulationist' to put it in at that level and is, in fact, sexist.

I incidentally have another way to sort this one out. Its called asking GMs who put stuff like that in to fight a woman of my choosing. The fact I'm picking an MMA fighter to fight them should be irrelevant according to you, right?

Adventurers usually = high end level specific abilities

 

[Sadras]

You wouldn't like Mystara at all, then. It's chock full of all these kinds of discrimination. Except maybe color. I can't think of anyone who discriminates on color.

I'm guessing orcs. There would be plenty orcs in the Broken Lands who might discriminate against other orcs based on colour. Humanoid racism at its finest

 

[Obryn]

I find limitations/variations are interesting when one is making character creation choices.

The difference between playing a halfling who might get submerged in the sewers, given his hight - but might be less spotted as opposed to a half-orc who will have no issues within the sewers but will be evidently noticable.

Same with the difference between playing a female and male character in a predominantly patriarchal or matriarchal setting and the challenges/misconceptions that may come into play. So now we just add a limitation/variation in abilities and other dynamics may come into play.

If everyone is stock standard - moves 30 feet, same ability limitations, same knowledge, same skills - I find that less interesting. I find choice should matter. It matters in race, it matters in class, it matters in backgrounds, it matters in the mico-elements of the character creation (feats or stat boost, skill selection, subclass choice) - why is it so difficult to fathom that it should matter when it comes to selecting one character's sex?

First - I don't think we're talking about your homebrew patriarchal/matriarchal society; we're talking about magic elfland (aka Forgotten Realms for 5e), the game's default setting.

Choices already matter - you listed quite a few of them. There are a few reasons a character's biological sex is different than the rest of those. First, races & classes are not real things. Second, it explicitly channels male and female characters into stereotypical roles that may not have a basis in magic elfland. Third, it sends a message to women players about what's important enough to model in the game-world. Fourth, if you are representing the difference between entirely different species with a +1 or +2 here or there, sexual dimorphism isn't on the charts. Fifth, you're talking about individual PCs' stats, not an entire population, so averages are irrelevant. Sixth, a +1 or -1 to a stat here or there isn't actually interesting at all compared to any of those other things you mentioned (valuable, but not interesting).

So can my male dragonborn give birth to an elf? Suspension of disbelief right?

Hey, this is D&D, the game where humans can interbreed with magical fantasy non-humans of completely different species. And dragons, last I checked, can interbreed with basically anything. So I guess if your dragonborn and an elf got together, it'd be up to you to figure out what would happen?

Besides, you're missing the point. If you want to say "this is too far," that's a line you've decided to draw. You're saying "nope, this is too silly." And yeah, saying "strong player character women is too silly" is a statement.

 

[Sadras]

Sure they can. I don't know where people got the idea that saying sexist or racist crap is okay, but calling out racist or sexist behavior is beyond the pale. It's absurd and juvenile.

Who said racist/sexist crap, if anyone did, then I've missed it.
The person you decided to support with XP, sanctioned death to anyone who might enjoy the game differently to him/her should they prefer sex, race and ethnicity to matter in character creation.

 

[JonnyP71]

The 50th percentile male is roughly as strong as the strongest elite female athlete. An average 70-year-old man has the same grip strength as the average 30-34-year-old woman (the highest category).

And from personal experience on the ground.... I'm a moderately trained Judoka, I've been doing the sport for about 6 years, training twice a week. I'm a 45 year old male, not exactly in my prime. I never go to the gym, and don't do much exercise apart from Judo.

One of our club's best athletes is a woman in her 20s, she narrowly missed out on fighting at the London Olympics in 2012. She's a 3rd Dan, and at her peak was training 7 days a week, a mixture of Judo, fitness and weights.

We're a similar height, I weight about 20lbs more than she does - significant but not excessive.

While she absolutely hammers me at Judo due to her speed, technique and agility, if I do somehow manage to get a firm grip on her she can barely move, as I am physically so much stronger than she is.

The MMA point made earlier is nonsense - of course a highly skilled female MMA fighter would destroy most normal male opponents - due to their skill level. In terms of raw strength though - you'd be surprised.

My wife's cousin is a female powerlifter (and former Highland Games competitor - she's taller, younger and heavier than I am - much heavier. Again she trains much more than I do. But the amount she can lift is only fractionally above what I can.

 

[Yaarel]

To give females a Strength penalty without giving males a Dexterity penalty, would be sexist.

 

[Sadras]

First - I don't think we're talking about your homebrew patriarchal/matriarchal society; we're talking about magic elfland (aka Forgotten Realms for 5e), the game's default setting.

Okay, that doesn't mean that differences between sexes may or may not exist. Ofcourse according to the rules published they don't.

Choices already matter - you listed quite a few of them. There are a few reasons a character's biological sex is different than the rest of those. First, races & classes are not real things.

Okay, so if we had to implement abilities affected by age, you would also object, because age is real?

Second, it explicitly channels male and female characters into stereotypical roles that may not have a basis in magic elfland.

Stereotypical roles? You're aware FR has a fair amount of stereotypical elements right? And this is where you draw the line?

Third, it sends a message to women players about what's important enough to model in the game-world.

So if we had to create an ability-age category, we would be emotionally hurting our hobby's grognards?

Fourth, if you are representing the difference between entirely different species with a +1 or +2 here or there, sexual dimorphism isn't on the charts.

That is true. However, given the lore I have read, all the common playable races mate/interact with each other in the same way as humans do, so by that logic I would find it fair to apply the sexual dimorphism to all the playable species should the DM want to.

Fifth, you're talking about individual PCs' stats, not an entire population, so averages are irrelevant.

That is also true, but we are talking about ASI and Feats which allow one to increase their PC's ability to the maximum. Why are you even mentioning averages?
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Sixth, a +1 or -1 to a stat here or there isn't actually interesting at all compared to any of those other things you mentioned (valuable, but not interesting).

That is also true. That is why in an earlier post I mentioned that I would find the female character more appealing given that I was thinking along the lines of additional proficiencies in place of a possible 19-20 STR score. Just in case you missed it earlier, I have not made any houserules at my table regarding females/males characters - too much other stuff to tinker with first

Besides, you're missing the point. If you want to say "this is too far," that's a line you've decided to draw. You're saying "nope, this is too silly." And yeah, saying "strong player character women is too silly" is a statement.

Not true. All I said was introducing such mechanics does not make one a sexist.
The statement you supported was "mechanics that differentiate between sexes is sexist"

 

[Obryn]

Who said racist/sexist crap, if anyone did, then I've missed it.
The person you decided to support with XP, sanctioned death to anyone who might enjoy the game differently to him/her should they prefer sex, race and ethnicity to matter in character creation.

No racism (thank goodness) but I think it's legitimate to have questions about the motivations of folks who feel it's important to include game mechanics which would lead the game down pathways that just so happen to represent earth human traditional gender roles. When - as stated before - there's so many other abstractions that get a free pass. (And when the physiological differences between entire different species, like halflings or dwarves, are represented by bonuses or penalties of the same scale.)

And I'm pretty sure there was no actual death wished upon anyone, come on.