D&D 5E Hasbro's Goldner - D&D up 50%

[pogre]

My kids prefer OD&D and Dungeon World, but I digress.

I'm not sure how any rational person could argue 5e has not been successful for WOTC. That's just being dense.

I think the majority of people who take issue with 5e, are the small subset who wished they had actually moved forward/broke new ground in design (instead of "cleaning up" a TSR style game) and/or are unhappy with the business/product model. I include myself in both of those camps to one extent or another.

Maybe I am not looking hard enough, but I am not seeing the "5e is a failure" diatribe here or elsewhere.

I think your objections are reasonable, although I don't share them.

The "5e is a failure" diatribe is not really in this thread - tough to make that argument in a fiduciary sense, but it really does not take long to find folks who feel that way on this site.

Thankfully, said critics have been less strident in their arguments the last few months. I think folks are back to settling into their preferred game without the need to slam others.

BTW - My kids enjoy 5e, but prefer WFRP 2e.

 

[Imaro]

My kids prefer OD&D and Dungeon World, but I digress.

I'm not sure how any rational person could argue 5e has not been successful for WOTC. That's just being dense.

I think the majority of people who take issue with 5e, are the small subset who wished they had actually moved forward/broke new ground in design (instead of "cleaning up" a TSR style game) and/or are unhappy with the business/product model. I include myself in both of those camps to one extent or another.

Maybe I am not looking hard enough, but I am not seeing the "5e is a failure" diatribe here or elsewhere.

Its often more along the lines of some who damn with faint praise... or just damn with backhanded insults... sort of how you implied in your post that they didnt move "forward" with 5e when in reality they just chose a different path "forward" than the one you preferred...

 

[Sacrosanct]

The "5e is a failure" diatribe is not really in this thread - tough to make that argument in a fiduciary sense, but it really does not take long to find folks who feel that way on this site.

Thankfully, said critics have been less strident in their arguments the last few months. I think folks are back to settling into their preferred game without the need to slam others.
.

I did a search for calling people apologists, and the first four results to come up were from the past week, and all four happened to be people on my ignore list. I got a chuckle at that coincidence. Full disclosure, I only have 5 or 6 people on my list to begin with, and usually the only reason I put someone on ignore is when someone has a habit of attacking the game and the designers with direct personal attacks repeatedly*. There are actually only one or two people I put on ignore for similar behavior targeted at everyone, not just the game or designers.

But apparently we don't have to go back very far to find said examples of people

*I'm a designer myself, so I admit my bias and sensitivity to such behavior.

 

[LordEntrails]

Thank you! I am sure he didn't realize this before!

You're welcome. I figured if he didn't know he wouldn't be complaining when there are obvious solutions everyone but he already knew about.

 

[JeffB]

Its often more along the lines of some who damn with faint praise... or just damn with backhanded insults... sort of how you implied in your post that they didnt move "forward" with 5e when in reality they just chose a different path "forward" than the one you preferred...

Its often more along the lines of some who damn with faint praise... or just damn with backhanded insults... sort of how you implied in your post that they didnt move "forward" with 5e when in reality they just chose a different path "forward" than the one you preferred...

By moving forward, I am talking about game mechanics. There is nothing new in 5e. The same can be said of 4e and 3e (e.g. HeroWars circa y2K presented "skill challenges" long before 4e). I love advantage/disadvantage, but even D&D derivatives like 13th Age and Dungeon World had this mechanic prior to 5e. Same goes for inspiration, Hero Points, Plot points, etc. Short and Long rests are just re-fluffing of encounter/dailies, hit dice replaces healing surges, etc. 5e as a rule set does a really good job at many things. Innovation is not one of them.

That doesn't make it a bad game. The market doesn't care, which is the whole point of my post: even though people have legitimate complaints, there should be no argument about how well 5e is doing.

 

[Uchawi]

I anxiously await all the 5e haters to chime in about how that doesn't prove anything, and 5e is still a step backward, and how the designers are lazy, and ignoring fans, and we're all just apologists for them, yada yada yada

Personally, I don't know if 5e will ever take the mantle away from AD&D as my favorite edition, but D&D doing well is a good thing in general. For all gamers.

I agree. It would be easier not to play it if you don't like it. Probably just a new player base enjoying the game. Plenty of other things to try once you get bored with it.

 

[Sacrosanct]

By moving forward, I am talking about game mechanics. There is nothing new in 5e. The same can be said of 4e and 3e (e.g. HeroWars circa y2K presented "skill challenges" long before 4e). I love advantage/disadvantage, but even D&D derivatives like 13th Age and Dungeon World had this mechanic prior to 5e. Same goes for inspiration, Hero Points, Plot points, etc. Short and Long rests are just re-fluffing of encounter/dailies, hit dice replaces healing surges, etc. 5e as a rule set does a really good job at many things. Innovation is not one of them.

That doesn't make it a bad game. The market doesn't care, which is the whole point of my post: even though people have legitimate complaints, there should be no argument about how well 5e is doing.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I don't think a game needs new things. How well did New Coke work? In fact, that's probably a better analogy than I initially intended. WotC comes out with a new edition (4e), with radical changes on many core ways things are handled, people didn't react nearly as well as the company wanted, so they went back to a tried and true method. Even if there were fans of the new Coke who preferred it over the classic brand.

*Edit* I guess what I'm saying is that when I want to play D&D, I want to play D&D. If I wanted to play something with different mechanics and ideas, I'd play them. IMO, D&D needs to keep pretty true to it's successful core ruleset.

 

[bmfrosty]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I don't think a game needs new things. How well did New Coke work? In fact, that's probably a better analogy than I initially intended. WotC comes out with a new edition (4e), with radical changes on many core ways things are handled, people didn't react nearly as well as the company wanted, so they went back to a tried and true method. Even if there were fans of the new Coke who preferred it over the classic brand.

*Edit* I guess what I'm saying is that when I want to play D&D, I want to play D&D. If I wanted to play something with different mechanics and ideas, I'd play them. IMO, D&D needs to keep pretty true to it's successful core ruleset.

4e is New Coke..... I like it.

 

[Shasarak]

The entire US tabletop gaming industry, including CCGs and board games, is about one major summer movie or AAA video game.

Is there any particular point in comparing how much money is spent of RPGs with, I dont know, anything else?

In other news people buy more coffee then RPGs.

 

[Imaculata]

In my opinion, 5th edition went back to 3rd and 2nd edition, and made a simplified version of it. Less statistics and bonuses, and simpler more accessible rules. It didn't change too much, but took what worked, and made it all faster and easier. And I think thats good, because one of the main limitations of D&D that has always scared off potential players, is the overly complex rules.

I don't think they need to reinvent the rules every single time, just as long as they improve the rules, and provide new content.