D&D 5E Xanathar hint from Crawford?

[CapnZapp]

Couldn't additional subclasses address that issue?

How?

I mean, "without overshadowing the existing subclasses?"

The UA Storm subclass was such a solution. It was nerfed back into blandness precisely because it meant nobody would play the PHB subclasses any more.

I'm more and more convinced WotC needs to bite bullet and accept that not all elements are equally good.

It's not enough to create a Storm (or Winter) sorcerer, and just give it more spells in the hope people will use the extra spells to create thematic thunder, or cold, spell selections. Not even restricting the extra spells is enough, since it only means players will use their core spells for Fireball etc and supplement that with the bonus spells.

There needs to be a rule saying something like "if you want to focus on cold or electricity you gain N extra spells but then you can't take any fire spells" and "if you want to focus on acid or poison you gain N+M extra spells, but then you can't take any fire, cold or electricity spells".

(Just to make up some example) Fire is simply better than poison. If you want to be a "poison witch", you need to get compensation for that, sure, but you also need to be unable to circumvent your theme to get both extra spells AND fireball.

It's a level of control they have NEVER dipped into. Without it, choosing Fireball will always be the better choice, and you will always have to sacrifice utility for theme, which I hate.

 

[gyor]

Jester David, you are correct that "perfect balance is impossible," and thankfully I am not advocating for "perfect balance," but, rather, I believe that we should strive for competitive balance within an acceptable margin.

It would also need additional spell options for the non-fire draconic sorcerers, but that is an easier fix.

We already have competitive balance.

 

[CapnZapp]

It would also need additional spell options for the non-fire draconic sorcerers, but that is an easier fix.

Just as they understand they can't just give out "you gain X more cold spells", since that only means the player takes more fire spells for his core selection.

If you want to focus on something else than fire, that's great. You deserve to be compensated. But that assumes you won't even be allowed to pick Fireball.

(Anyone picking Fireball isn't "focusing on something else than fire", and should not get any compensation.)

 

[CapnZapp]

Jester David, you are correct that "perfect balance is impossible," and thankfully I am not advocating for "perfect balance," but, rather, I believe that we should strive for competitive balance within an acceptable margin.

Of course you are. Just ignore Jester David and Gyor & Co. They will never admit a good game can be made better.

 

[CapnZapp]

You could argue the same point about the bard. It was my favourite class in 3e and I'm not entirely satisfied with the 5e version, can that be re-done as well then?


Again, the same could be said about the warlock.

So that's two more classes they need to re-do.

You keep responding to arguments noone is making.

Nobody is trying to make the game "perfect".

This is about the sorcerer. Arguing that "since the bard and warlock needs fixing too, let's not fix the sorcerer" is an absurd argument.

But I don't think we need WotC to start trying to start the "revision cycle" all over again for the third edition in a row trying to re-jigger balance. That causes more problems than it fixes, especially with organised play when introducing a second version of a class can only cause confusion.

The "cycle" has never stopped. The revised ranger is not going to be the last revision of the game. Your arguments fall flat.

 

[Li Shenron]

The UA Storm subclass was such a solution. It was nerfed back into blandness precisely because it meant nobody would play the PHB subclasses any more.

This was the semi-official reason for removing bonus known spells, but honestly I didn't think it was a good reason.

Because at the same time, it would have meant that more people would have chosen to play the Sorcerer in the first place! I don't know the statistics, but judging from forum discussions, people prefer to play Wizards and Warlocks because they don't feel the Sorcerer offers as much*. I would have rather let its 2 subclasses fade into obscurity (but then I don't think it would have really happened) than keep the whole class slightly underwhelming.

*or they bring back that "this is good because it's good for beginners" (who don't understand their inferior choice) cr&p

I'm more and more convinced WotC needs to bite bullet and accept that not all elements are equally good.

I am fine with not all elements being equally good, but classes are pretty much the central choice of the game, and as such they should always be "as equally good as possible".

There needs to be a rule saying something like "if you want to focus on cold or electricity you gain N extra spells but then you can't take any fire spells" and "if you want to focus on acid or poison you gain N+M extra spells, but then you can't take any fire, cold or electricity spells".

Well I really wouldn't want to go back to restrictions of that kind.

Back to the OT... it's been known for months already that XGtE would have included a few subclasses from SCAG. The new knowledge is that the Swashbuckler is going to be corrected. That's not the same as revised, because Crawford clearly says it was an error. There is no indication that anything else in XGtE will be corrected, and much less revised.

 

[Aldarc]

We already have competitive balance.

We are certainly discussing whether that is the case.

 

[Coroc]

Tell me, does no one of you "sorcerer is meh" complainers use / understand the convert spellslots to sp and generate higher Level spellslots out of the sp rule?

Where can the wizard cast 5 or 6 fireballs between rests? A sorcerer can. I do not want to make the math now at which Level, do that yourself and compare.

If at all the sorc is totally overpowered as a blaster compared to a wizard at least if you use that rule.

 

[CapnZapp]

Tell me, does no one of you "sorcerer is meh" complainers use / understand the convert spellslots to sp and generate higher Level spellslots out of the sp rule?

Where can the wizard cast 5 or 6 fireballs between rests? A sorcerer can. I do not want to make the math now at which Level, do that yourself and compare.

If at all the sorc is totally overpowered as a blaster compared to a wizard at least if you use that rule.

Tell me, do you understand that the complaint isn't "fire draconic sorcerer is meh"?

But instead that its bloody hard to build another concept without having to sacrifice power on the altar of theme?

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[Coroc]

I do understand that fire draconic sorcerer is a good build, but it is balanced imho
in ist role as a blaster. The SCAG FS sorcerer is totally overpowered and needs rework.
The wildmagic sorcerer is ok but depends on a good DM.
If you want another theme but absolutely equal to fire sorc just change the elemental damage of some spells and make them sorc only that is an easy houserule which does not damage anything.

But my question still stands: The sorc using the rule of converting slots to sp and converting them back into high level spell slots seems very powerful compared to a wizard, even if it is not a fire sorc. No wizard can dish out that amount of high level nova casting. So why do those thinking the wiz is better not use the conversion rule which is in the PHB???