D&D 5E Xanathar hint from Crawford?

[Coroc]

double post due to Editor screwing up

 

[Coroc]

So i did the math now for a 10th Level sorcerer, no matter what subclass:

he has got these spellslots: 4 3 3 3 2

which converts to

8+ 9+ 15+ 18+ 14 = 64 SP !!!

He can hold 10 SP at any time and convert a slot per round as a bonus action.


That is 8 TWINNED Level 3 spells (a 8 SP) (e.g. twinned fireball or twinned haste)or 12 Level 3 (a 5 SP) spells between rests !!!

So tell me, where is the sorc underpowered, where? I ask you, you dpr freaks:Name me a single class which can dish out that amount of damage!!

Or tell me, which wizard utility spell can haste two of your dpr party members 8 times between rests?

The sorcerer if at all is absolutely overpowered, depending a bit on tactical combat of your personal DM, and in no way inferior to a wizard or any other class!

 

[Jester David]

Jester David, you are correct that "perfect balance is impossible," and thankfully I am not advocating for "perfect balance," but, rather, I believe that we should strive for competitive balance within an acceptable margin.

What's the "acceptable margin"? Who determines that?
Balance it terms of what? DPR? Options? Flavour? Number of players?

WotC seems to be judging things based on player satisfaction, and the socrerer seems just fine by that metric.

It would also need additional spell options for the non-fire draconic sorcerers, but that is an easier fix.

I'm not opposed to new spells. There have been a restrained amount so far. But I don't think setting out to make new elemental spells solely to add new elemental spells is the best design.
We don't need spells created by a check-list.

But, really, it's super easy to change the damage type of spells. Scorching ray becomes chilling ray for your frost themed sorcerer. And there's no shortage of new spells on the DMsGuild.

You keep responding to arguments noone is making.

Nobody is trying to make the game "perfect".

This is about the sorcerer. Arguing that "since the bard and warlock needs fixing too, let's not fix the sorcerer" is an absurd argument.

It's about the sorcerer because a vocal minority of posters here want the sorcerer tweaked.
The quest is, why not the other classes as well? If you're going to revise other classes, why not give them all a touch-up? If you're going to give one class new toys, you should give all the classes new toys.

The "cycle" has never stopped. The revised ranger is not going to be the last revision of the game. Your arguments fall flat.

Contrarily, I'd say arguing that because the game will eventually be revised we should just revise now falls flat.

The game will almost certainly be revised again. Either for a revised 5th Edition or a 6th Edition. So that's a good reason not to revise now, and keep the game as stable as possible for as long as possible. Don't make more changes than absolutely necessary.

 

[Aldarc]

What's the "acceptable margin"? Who determines that?
Balance it terms of what? DPR? Options? Flavour? Number of players?

WotC seems to be judging things based on player satisfaction, and the socrerer seems just fine by that metric.

I don't know for sure, Jester David, what the acceptable margin is. I tend to be something of a Rawlsian looking for an evolving overlapping consensus. How about we discuss that politely and not in a manner that tries to shut down the conversation at the outset through needlessly aggressive rhetorical questions and strawmen? Because talking about the acceptable margin of balanced game options is a helluva lot more conducive for generating a productive discussion than claiming that others and I are arguing for the impossible endless cyle of "perfect balance."

If you are on board with sharing your thoughts, in the context of 5E what are the parameters for the acceptable margin of balanced game options for you, Jester David?

I'm not opposed to new spells. There have been a restrained amount so far. But I don't think setting out to make new elemental spells solely to add new elemental spells is the best design.
We don't need spells created by a check-list.

But, really, it's super easy to change the damage type of spells. Scorching ray becomes chilling ray for your frost themed sorcerer. And there's no shortage of new spells on the DMsGuild.

A new metamagic option could also work where you change the damage type of the spell, but that would also effectively be a tax, but one that could also help get around the sorcerer's more limited list of spells known.

 

[gyor]

"Converting a Spell Slot to Sorcery Points. As abonus action on your turn, you can expend one spell slot and gain a number of sorcery points equal to the slot’s level."

At 10th level that mean converting all your slots is 4+6+9+12 + 10= 41 sorcery points, + 10 sorcery points = 51 still impressive. That could be 51 twinned or empowered cantrips, or convert it to 10 3rd level spells or 7 5th level spells.

 

[Coroc]

"Converting a Spell Slot to Sorcery Points. As abonus action on your turn, you can expend one spell slot and gain a number of sorcery points equal to the slot’s level."

At 10th level that mean converting all your slots is 4+6+9+12 + 10= 41 sorcery points, + 10 sorcery points = 51 still impressive. That could be 51 twinned or empowered cantrips, or convert it to 10 3rd level spells or 7 5th level spells.

Look at my math 3 posts further up, I think I forgot the initial 10 so actually it is 74 sp.
But your math is rather for 8th level so it is 51 at 8th and 74 at 10th, and you can also twin higher level spells of course. Cantrips is the way to go when the big guns run out of ammo imho.

I did have a player in one of my campaigns who did not use this mechanic for optimum for some reason. The sorcerer was ok in that campaign but for other campaigns I would even go so far and not allow this class depending on whatever, because it can lead to very challenging DM work to constantly invent balanced combat scenarios.

What gives me a headache is the favoured soul, I dunno was it SCAG or UA, getting all cleric spells in addition to the sorc spells is to much imho. He should get only clerical spells instead.

 

[Staffan]

So i did the math now for a 10th Level sorcerer, no matter what subclass:

he has got these spellslots: 4 3 3 3 2

which converts to

8+ 9+ 15+ 18+ 14 = 64 SP !!!

He can hold 10 SP at any time and convert a slot per round as a bonus action.


That is 8 TWINNED Level 3 spells (a 8 SP) (e.g. twinned fireball or twinned haste)or 12 Level 3 (a 5 SP) spells between rests !!!

You can't twin fireball. You can only twin a spell that targets a single creature. Haste works though.

Also, converting a spell slot to sorcery points does not use the same ratio as the other way around. You get one sorcery point per spell level. Converting all the sorcerer's spell slots to sorcery points would give them 4 + 6 + 9 + 12 + 10 = 41 SP. That converts to 8 3rd level spells, which you could just use your existing 8 3rd+ level slots for.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Look at my math 3 posts further up, I think I forgot the initial 10 so actually it is 74 sp.
But your math is rather for 8th level so it is 51 at 8th and 74 at 10th, and you can also twin higher level spells of course. Cantrips is the way to go when the big guns run out of ammo imho.

I did have a player in one of my campaigns who did not use this mechanic for optimum for some reason. The sorcerer was ok in that campaign but for other campaigns I would even go so far and not allow this class depending on whatever, because it can lead to very challenging DM work to constantly invent balanced combat scenarios.

What gives me a headache is the favoured soul, I dunno was it SCAG or UA, getting all cleric spells in addition to the sorc spells is to much imho. He should get only clerical spells instead.

Favored Soul has never left UA and it has already been heavily revised in preparation for publication in Xanather's Guide to Everything

 

[Coroc]

You can't twin fireball. You can only twin a spell that targets a single creature. Haste works though.

Also, converting a spell slot to sorcery points does not use the same ratio as the other way around. You get one sorcery point per spell level. Converting all the sorcerer's spell slots to sorcery points would give them 4 + 6 + 9 + 12 + 10 = 41 SP. That converts to 8 3rd level spells, which you could just use your existing 8 3rd+ level slots for.

Ups, sorry I was in a hurry and misread that, and also with twinned fireball you are of course correct. Still 8 3rd level spells at level 10 compared to the 3 a wizard gets makes a difference doesn't it?

And there are several spells which can be twinned, not only damaging cantrips but also utility spells.

 

[Coroc]

Favored Soul has never left UA and it has already been heavily revised in preparation for publication in Xanather's Guide to Everything

Good to hear, first I did not recall wether I read that in UA or SCAG which I do not personally own.

Edit: I would houserule though, that the FS does not get arcane spells at all but only divine spells. Otherwise the class seems balanced in the revision.