D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Hussar]

I thought mechanics only impacted world-building when it was inconvenient...?

...oh, no wait, that was in the elephantine Elephant thread....

Nice to see at least someone got the reference.

 

[TwoSix]

Nice to see at least someone got the reference.

An elephant thread never forgets.

 

[Oofta]

An elephant thread never forgets.

Forgets what?

 

[TwoSix]

Forgets what?

Exactly.

 

[Oofta]

Exactly.

Heh. Oh yeah. We're forgetting that. Wink wink, say no more, say no more.

 

[Arial Black]

I have no problem with wizards being more intelligent than most people, or clerics being wiser any more than I would have a problem with a basketball team with above average height. So yes, I want my characters to be good at what they do, exceptional even without being cheesed out.

My system leads to that. The vast majority of players will choose a class that suit their stats.

I see no value to randomly assigned stats for me. If I'm interested in a campaign, I'll typically get info about options, setting and general feel. I generally come up with a character concept before the session 0. So no, I would not want to be told "you will play this randomly generated character".

I do this because I want to create interesting characters that have personality and history. I'm going to be putting myself in their shoes for what I hope to be quite some time, I want to make sure the shoes fit.

Take an example. I want to play Throg. Throg is a half orc, and reasonably personable, smarter than people give him credit for but often acts without thinking. He's also quite clumsy, and can't follow in his adoptive parent's footsteps in the glass-blowing guild.

So that's my character concept. I'd throw in some other background stories that give a picture of the Throg as more than just a cardboard cutout - he really is a lovable lunk that simply leaps before he looks. Maybe he occasionally loses his temper because of his half-orc heritage, and although he would never harm family or friends he feels like he doesn't belong.

I do this before I figure out stats. Now that I have a picture of who Throg is, I have to figure out what he is. Yes, that means I'll probably have dump stats in dexterity and wisdom but I'll also make intelligence and charisma a bit above average as well. A logical class would be some type of fighter. Or maybe while writing up the background I decide he's fascinated with magic and becomes a wizard or an eldritch knight (even if it doesn't seem like a very effective class).

For the next campaign I'm going to be starting in a few weeks, I know who my character is and he has an intro story filled with mystery and deceit (that only my DM knows so far). I just don't know what he is yet.

The point is that the implementation follows the inception. Random stat generation could really mess with that concept, no matter how fair the generation method. For me, stats are not about min/maxing, it's about crafting the character that matches a concept I dreamed up. With reasonable limitations for game balance of course.

Each method has its own advantages and disadvantages, and it is true that one of the advantages of point-buy is that you can create loads of characters while you are on your own without DM supervision.

But it is not true that point-buy is what allows you to go through the complex creation process you just described! Random rolls also allow you to do that! The two methods have that in common; where they differ is the order of operations: for point-buy it's concept => determine stats, for rolling it's determine stats => concept.

It is a fallacy that rolling does not allow you to have the luxury of a fully-realised, well-thought-out character concept. What's different is that the random starting point gives you opportunities and ideas that you would never have had otherwise. One of the limitations of point-buy is that you only get characters you already thought of, while rolling gives you the spur to imagine something new.

Now, it's okay that you prefer one method over the other, but it is not true that rolling prevents you from engaging in just as detailed a concept to character generation process as point-buy. We can start with the rolls, then go away and think of a character that fits the rolled scores, and there are infinitely many of those for each rolled set. The quality of that final concept depends on us, not the rolls!

 

[Oofta]

My system leads to that. The vast majority of players will choose a class that suit their stats.

You may have missed my point (or it's just a different approach which is fine). I want my stats to suit my character vision. I then base my class on my character, stats and background.

If I envision the son of a blacksmith who is smart and fascinated with magic, it only makes sense if he has a decent strength (say 14) but I also want him to be effective at his role so he has a 16 int. Other stats may be affected by my background story and discussions with the rest of the group. Is he sociable? A low charisma bookworm? Sickly from all that smoke from the forge? I don't know until I think more about it.

Random dice rolls don't really support that IMHO. The last thing I do is either pick a role/class or stats. In most cases actual ability scores are the last thing.

There is no one true way.

 

[Arial Black]

What, and not jump right into adventuring the same evening?

No. One thing Oofta and I have in common is that it takes some time to realise a character. Sometimes it takes me a week to think of a good name!

One example from my personal experience: I was playing Icons (a superhero RPG) where there is a lot of random generation! I rolled really well for stats (the first step in the process) and was really excited. Then I rolled the 'Training' background, which meant I had fewer power rolls (although more skills-and you could freely choose which skills), and any superpower you rolled was either from equipment or from training.

So I got (randomly, minus the Training background penalty) two rolls on the superpower tables. The first power I rolled was 'Immortality'. But that power cost two rolls! My only superpower was immortality!

Nor being immortal sounds cool, but what would my PC do in a slugfest? "I attack him with my immortalty!"? My hero would lose every fight, even if I got better afterwards. What's worse is that my immortality had to be from some kind of device, and how can you have lived for hundreds of years if your Amulet of Immortality got taken from you by the guy who knocked you out or killed you.

So I stared at those stats for a week, trying to make the proverbial silk purse. Then, light shone from Heaven (maybe; it could have been from the fridge) and I was inspired to create one of the best concepts I have ever had in nearly forty years of role-playing! I won't bore you with all the details, but playing a 22,000 year-old Atlantean (before it sank!) martial artist, who pretends to be the son/grandson of previous heroes with the same name, and with as rich a backstory as you can cram into 22,000 years, is awesome! And the immortality device? How about the planet itself, modified in places by Atlantean sorcerer tech? Try taking that from my corpse, Flash Thompson!

So, yeah, I need a week (at least) between rolling and playing. But rolling can give me extraordinary ideas that I would never have had if I could just choose my stats/powers. I would be playing a slight variation of Superman every time.

 

[Arial Black]

You may have missed my point (or it's just a different approach which is fine). I want my stats to suit my character vision. I then base my class on my character, stats and background.

If I envision the son of a blacksmith who is smart and fascinated with magic, it only makes sense if he has a decent strength (say 14) but I also want him to be effective at his role so he has a 16 int. Other stats may be affected by my background story and discussions with the rest of the group. Is he sociable? A low charisma bookworm? Sickly from all that smoke from the forge? I don't know until I think more about it.

Random dice rolls don't really support that IMHO. The last thing I do is either pick a role/class or stats. In most cases actual ability scores are the last thing.

There is no one true way.

None of what you said is wrong. It's just the idea that rolling prevents you from 'realising a vision' that is wrong. Rolling just means you do it in a different order.

You might roll Str 14 and Int 16, and then think of a concept that matches. One concept would be 'a smith who is fascinated by magic'. Is he sociable? Look at his Cha to find out, and then think of why his Cha is that high (or low). You still have to think about it, but instead of having to choose scores which not only match your vision but also limit your vision to 27 points(!), you already have those. You envisioning has a starting point, but you don't have to worry about keeping to 27 points.

The two methods are really not so different in terms of 'realising a concept'.

 

[Caliban]

None of what you said is wrong. It's just the idea that rolling prevents you from 'realising a vision' that is wrong. Rolling just means you do it in a different order.

You might roll Str 14 and Int 16, and then think of a concept that matches. One concept would be 'a smith who is fascinated by magic'. Is he sociable? Look at his Cha to find out, and then think of why his Cha is that high (or low). You still have to think about it, but instead of having to choose scores which not only match your vision but also limit your vision to 27 points(!), you already have those. You envisioning has a starting point, but you don't have to worry about keeping to 27 points.

The two methods are really not so different in terms of 'realising a concept'.

They are completely different.

One way allows me to choose stats that conform to my pre-existing character concept.
The other forces me to change my character concept to match the randomly rolled stats.

Neither is a bad way of coming up with a character, but please stop pretending that rolling lets you create the character you want. It requires you to either change what you want to match what the dice give you or not have a character concept until after the dice have shown you what you have to work with.