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D&D 5E "when circumstances are appropriate for hiding"

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
[MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION]

I think we end up in the same place. It's simply that you view the standard hiding rules in combat as starting off very lenient and allowing the DM to tighten things up at his discretion. I view them the opposite. I view the standard hiding rules as being very tight and I view the rules as explicitly being given the latitude to make hiding easy.

The only difference in our opinions is whether the standard in the rules begins as lenient or difficult for hiding in combat.

Your evidence of course revolves around the rogues ability and the halflings ability and the wood-elfs etc. If I may paraphrase it basically boils down to those abilities being existing and the fact they would be nearly useless in a game with as strict of hiding rules as I propose. I get the logic and reasoning.

My evidence is the hiding rules tell me a monsters demeanor in combat is generally that the monster is alert for signs of danger all around. The rules themselves list the DM allowing you to "come out of hiding" and approach a creature while still remaining "hidden" as an exception to the general norm.

So can we maybe agree that a creature stops being hidden when it comes out of hiding? Can we also agree that the rules never define what it means for a creature "comes out of hiding". Basically from where I am sitting it looks like the DM is free to rule almost whatever he wants to be defined as coming out of hiding as the book gives no real guidance on that.

This actually makes me want to change my position. I don't believe the rules have any default position on hiding in combat because I don't believe the rules specify what it takes to come out of hiding. Maybe we can agree there?

The rules list a few things that count as 'coming out of hiding'. Leaving/losing your concealment/cover, for one, with rare exception as noted. Making a loud noise. Attacking (after the fact), unless you have skulker, and then successfully attacking (again, after the fact). That's clearly not a comprehensive list, but it sets a number of clear benchmarks that guide a path towards what might and might not count as coming out of hiding.

The 'leave hiding and approaching' bit falls under the first category -- leaving/losing your concealment/cover. The 'approaching' is interesting, though, because it implies that just leaving cover/concealment isn't always sufficient -- if you're moving between cover/concealment locations, for instance, as long as it's not approaching an observer, it seems you may be okay.

But, all of that said, those seem like pretty obvious and lenient conditions for hiding -- essentially, don't do anything that will obviously get you noticed, like jump out and run at someone, or shout, or shoot at someone, because then everyone will notice. I'm not seeing anything in there that indicates, in any way, that there are very tight conditions for maintaining hiding. As always, though, the appropriateness of hiding is up to the DM, so these conditions can be significantly tightened by a DM and still be good to go. Again, I fall back on the system has to be written as leniently as possible so the DM can pull in the slack. It's far easier to pull in the slack by adding DM arbitration than rewriting rules to allow more slack. The designers have followed the former path in a number of areas in 5e, so I don't think hiding is going to be the exception.
 

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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I've idea about those cases, however since he says you do not count as coming out of hiding if you peek out and shoot (no movement used), then I suppose 10% wouldnt count atleast, you are still mostly obscured behind something. I'd probably rule you have to be 100% out to "come out", I would be easily convinced about anything above 50% counting, but 10% seems closer to being actually unnoticed still;

Remember when you hide and roll stealth you might not end up being unseen - if the monsters PP all beats your stealth roll; I suppose that implies a certain percentage of you is actually sticking out from behind the cover and the monsters noticing that.

Very good. Those are all good and fair answers. We all would have slightly different cut offs there and maybe some other factors would play into the scenario but I think we all have some idea of what we think would typically be good or bad enough in that scenario.

Can I ask another question.

Scenario 1: 1v1 Rogue vs Orc. Rogues Turn: Rogue runs behind a large rock. Takes the hide action. Then fires at the enemy. He gets advantage.
Scenario 2: 1v1 Rogue vs Orc. Rogues Turn: Rogue runs behind a large rock. He does not take the hide action. Then he fires at the enemy. He does not get advantage.

Besides the game mechanics difference where one gets advantage and one does not can you name one difference in the fictional game world between these scenarios?
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Well that's a good starting point but it doesn't hardly answer the question.

1. What if you move out to where 10% of your body shows (only doable in theatre of the mind I guess)?
2. What if you move out to where 90% of your body shows (only doable in theatre of the mind I guess)?

Do either of those cases count as "coming out of hiding"?

1, why are these only doable in theatre of the mind? I suppose if you have highly detailed modeled terrain you could just look, but I think most of us play with blocky squares and poorly drawn terrain on a battlemat or with whatever graphic we can find that looks cool on a VTT. Either way, % coverage isn't clearly handled by a battlemat and minis -- you have to embellish.

2. the answer to both is 'whatever the DM says'. Personally, I go with about 50% for maintaining hiding and >75% to hide to start. Get 3/4 cover or better to hide, but you can sneak around under half cover. Concealment is a light/heavy/none three position switch, so I require heavy to hide and at least light to continue hiding. Both of these allow racial/class abilities to shine because they break the general rules I've established. But I still make judgement calls. Frex, in a recent SKT game, my rogue asked if she could hide under a giant sized table that was open on all sides and tall enough for her to walk comfortably under. I said sure, because she was hiding from giants that were near the table.
 

cmad1977

Hero
Well that's a good starting point but it doesn't hardly answer the question.

1. What if you move out to where 10% of your body shows (only doable in theatre of the mind I guess)?
2. What if you move out to where 90% of your body shows (only doable in theatre of the mind I guess)?

Do either of those cases count as "coming out of hiding"?

Dms call.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
Hiding and stealth are totally different things. To hide you need to get concealed visibly, to stealth you do not. In combat creatures are "alert", otherwise they might not be. You can stealth past creatures that are not "alert" without maintaining concealment, you just need to beat their PP; ie leave a small enough "percievable" footprint.

I make the distinction you are making differently. In my games, you need to be heavily obscured or concealed by an obstruction to hide from/sneak past/sneak up on any creature, whether alert or not. It makes no difference. The difference comes in when I'm deciding whether to use the dice. If the creature whose notice you are trying to avoid isn't alert, then you succeed without a roll.

Perception is NOT vision; it is the totality of a creatures perceptual apparatus. Hiding has a visual requirement - you need concealment, stealth is about perception - you need to leave a low perceptual footprint.

Even being invisible does not make you hidden; but you can always try to hide if you are invisible; since you always meet the requirement of being visibly concealed...

Anyway it is worth listening to the podcast I linked earlier if these mechanics of the game are still unsure in your mind.

I really don't understand why you chose to avoid my questions. I appreciate your linking the podcast, but why do you assume others haven't listened to it? This is a 5e forum. I can assure you that everyone here that's interested, including myself, has heard the podcast. I can also assure you that the mechanics regarding hiding/sneaking are very firmly placed in my mind. Personally, I find your interpretation of them to be quite odd.
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Very good. Those are all good and fair answers. We all would have slightly different cut offs there and maybe some other factors would play into the scenario but I think we all have some idea of what we think would typically be good or bad enough in that scenario.

Can I ask another question.

Scenario 1: 1v1 Rogue vs Orc. Rogues Turn: Rogue runs behind a large rock. Takes the hide action. Then fires at the enemy. He gets advantage.
Scenario 2: 1v1 Rogue vs Orc. Rogues Turn: Rogue runs behind a large rock. He does not take the hide action. Then he fires at the enemy. He does not get advantage.

Besides the game mechanics difference where one gets advantage and one does not can you name one difference in the fictional game world between these scenarios?

Sure, how much do you want?

1: The rogue takes advantage of the orc checking over it's shoulder and dives behind the rock. When the orc looks back, the rogue has vanished. In the orc's momentary confusion, the rogue rolls out from the other side of the rock and snapshots the orc in the eye.

2. The rogue puts a large rock between the orc and himself because that's what you do when facing orcs -- don't let them have a clear line at you with their big axes! The rogue takes a shot at the orc over the rock and hopes the fighter gets over here soon!

Those can go any number of ways. The point is that the battlemat and bland action descriptions sketch the action, they don't (necessarily) determine the entirety of it. I added the necessarily because it occurs to me that limiting things to the battlemat truths is a valid playstyle, so long as you (or anyone else) enjoys playing that way.
 

In case it helps highlight anything, here's a copy paste of the PHB's segments on stealth and hiding curated as if it were its own article. The actual content itself should be minimally edited (i.e., it's directly copied except where it wouldn't make grammatical sense) but feedback is certainly welcome if something seems off.
•••​

HIDING
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide. lf you are hidden when you make an attack, you have advantage on attack rolls and give away your location when the attack hits or misses. Likewise, you have disadvantage attacking a target that is hidden from you. If a target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss.

To hide, you must be heavily obscured and unheard. For example, an invisible creature is heavily obscured, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.

The DC of your Dexterity (Stealth) check is the Passive Perception score of those you’re hiding from. Creatures with advantage or disadvantage to perceive you gain +5 or -5 to their Passive Perception, respectively. If a creature searches for signs of your presence, your check is contested by that creature's Wisdom (Perception) check.

You are discovered if the result your Dexterity (Stealth) check is below the creature’s Passive Perception or Wisdom (Perception) check. You can also be discovered if you’re no longer heavily obscured from a creature you’re hiding from, make noise, or choose to stop hiding (no action required).

In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.

You cannot hide from a creature that can see you, so success relies heavily on a character’s surrounding light levels and visual obstructions. You are uncovered or unobscured in bright light where most creatures see normally. Even gloomy days provide bright light, as do torches, lanterns, fires, and other sources of illumination within a specific radius.

Dim light, also called shadows, creates a lightly obscured area. In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight. An area of dim light is usually a boundary between a source of bright light, such as a torch, and surrounding darkness. The soft light of twilight and dawn also counts as dim light. A particularly brilliant full moon might bathe the land in dim light. Certain features (such as the Wood Elf’s Mask of the Wild trait or the Skulker feat) enable you to hide while only lightly obscured, otherwise, you can only hide while heavily obscured.

Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness. Any natural phenomena that blocks vision entirely (such as opaque fog, or dense foliage) also heavily obscure you. A heavily obscured area doesn’t blind you, but you are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it.

•••

This section below isn't taken from the PHB but is part of the document I have on my end for the purposes of quick reference for the table.

•••​

Two heavily obscured combatants roll normally. The advantage granted by attacking a blind target is cancelled out by the disadvantage of being a blind attacker.

The roll for a heavily obscured combatant attacking a less obscured target rolls depends on the attacker’s ability to see through the obscurity. If the attacker can’t see through the obscurity (as would be the case with dense foliage or the effects of the Fog Cloud spell) the combatants roll normally as they are effectively blind to each other.

Alternatively a heavily obscured attacker who can see through the obscurity (for example, shooting out of darkness into an area of bright light) rolls with advantage since the target is effectively blind to the attacker but not vice versa.

Inversely, a less obscured combatant targeting a heavily obscured target rolls normally unless the target is able to see through the obstruction. If so, the attacker has disadvantage because there’s no mutual condition of blindness to cancel out (dis)advantage.

If you have multiple forms of obstruction, you’re concealed only by the most covering source of obstruction. For example, if you’re hiding in moderate foliage in dim light, you’re are lightly obscured. The two sources of obstruction do not create a sum of heavy obstruction.
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
In case it helps highlight anything, here's a copy paste of the PHB's segments on stealth and hiding curated as if it were its own article. The actual content itself should be minimally edited (i.e., it's directly copied except where it wouldn't make grammatical sense) but feedback is certainly welcome if something seems off.

STEALTH

HIDING When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can’t hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.

PASSIVE PERCEPTION When you hide, there’s a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature’s passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature’s Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. Ifthe creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.

What Can You See One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily 10 as explained in chapter 8

HIDE
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules in chapter 7 for hiding. lf you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this chapter.

UNSEEN ATTACKERS AND TARGETS
Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, ar lurking in darkness. When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location ar you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly.
When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. lf you are hidden-both unseen and unheard-when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.


VISION AND LIGHT
The most fundamental tasks of adventuring—noticing danger, finding hidden objects, hitting an enemy in combat, and targeting a spell, to name just a few— rely heavily on a character’s ability to see. Darkness and other effects that obscure vision can prove a significant hindrance.
A given area might be lightly or heavily obscured. In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight. A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the BLINDED condition:

• A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have disadvantage.

The presence or absence of light in an environment creates three categories of illumination: bright light, dim light, and darkness. Bright light lets most creatures see normally. Even gloomy days provide bright light, as do torches, lanterns, fires, and other sources of illumination within a specific radius. Dim light, also called shadows, creates a lightly obscured area. An area of dim light is usually a boundary between a source of bright light, such as a torch, and surrounding darkness. The soft light of twilight and dawn also counts as dim light. A particularly brilliant full moon might bathe the land in dim light.
Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness.

BLINDED
- A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
- Attack rolls against the creature have advantage and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage,



Yo! I wanted to clarify and correct some of the stealth and perception procedures in my campaigns. The hiding/stealth/perception sections are spread out and I found it helpful to organize them as if they were a single section.

HIDING
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide. lf you are hidden when you make an attack, you have advantage on attack rolls and give away your location when the attack hits or misses. Likewise, you have disadvantage attacking a target that is hidden from you. If a target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss.

To hide, you must be heavily obscured and unheard. For example, an invisible creature is heavily obscured, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.

The DC of your Dexterity (Stealth) check is the Passive Perception score of those you’re hiding from. Creatures with advantage or disadvantage to perceive you gain +5 or -5 to their Passive Perception, respectively. If a creature searches for signs of your presence, your check is contested by that creature's Wisdom (Perception) check.

You are discovered if the result your Dexterity (Stealth) check is below the creature’s Passive Perception or Wisdom (Perception) check. You are also discovered if you’re no longer heavily obscured from a creature you’re hiding from, make noise, or choose to stop hiding (no action required).

In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.

You cannot hide from a creature that can see you, so success relies heavily on a character’s surrounding light levels and visual obstructions. You are uncovered or unobscured in bright light where most creatures see normally. Even gloomy days provide bright light, as do torches, lanterns, fires, and other sources of illumination within a specific radius.

Dim light, also called shadows, creates a lightly obscured area. In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight. An area of dim light is usually a boundary between a source of bright light, such as a torch, and surrounding darkness. The soft light of twilight and dawn also counts as dim light. A particularly brilliant full moon might bathe the land in dim light. Certain features (such as the Wood Elf’s Mask of the Wild trait or the Skulker feat) enable you to hide while only lightly obscured, otherwise, you can only hide while heavily obscured.

Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness. Any natural phenomena that blocks vision entirely (such as opaque fog, or dense foliage) also heavily obscure you. A heavily obscured area doesn’t blind you, but you are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it.

•••

This section below isn't taken from the PHB but is part of the document I have on my end for the purposes of quick reference for the table.

•••

Two heavily obscured combatants roll normally. The advantage granted by attacking a blind target is cancelled out by the disadvantage of being a blind attacker.

The roll for a heavily obscured combatant attacking a less obscured target rolls depends on the attacker’s ability to see through the obscurity. If the attacker can’t see through the obscurity (as would be the case with dense foliage or the effects of the Fog Cloud spell) the combatants roll normally as they are effectively blind to each other.

Alternatively a heavily obscured attacker who can see through the obscurity (for example, shooting out of darkness into an area of bright light) rolls with advantage since the target is effectively blind to the attacker but not vice versa.

Inversely, a less obscured combatant targeting a heavily obscured target rolls normally unless the target is able to see through the obstruction. If so, the attacker has disadvantage because there’s no mutual condition of blindness to cancel out (dis)advantage.

If you have multiple forms of obstruction, you’re concealed only by the most covering source of obstruction. For example, if you’re hiding in moderate foliage in dim light, you’re are lightly obscured. The two sources of obstruction do not create a sum of heavy obstruction.

Nicely done!

In skimming over it, I thought I'd offer my houserule about unseen attackers: you only get advantage on a target than cannot see you if you can see the target. This eliminates the whole 'attack normally in darkness' silliness and means everyone that can't see attacks at disadvantage -- even if the target can't see as well.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Sure, how much do you want?

1: The rogue takes advantage of the orc checking over it's shoulder and dives behind the rock. When the orc looks back, the rogue has vanished. In the orc's momentary confusion, the rogue rolls out from the other side of the rock and snapshots the orc in the eye.

2. The rogue puts a large rock between the orc and himself because that's what you do when facing orcs -- don't let them have a clear line at you with their big axes! The rogue takes a shot at the orc over the rock and hopes the fighter gets over here soon!

Those can go any number of ways. The point is that the battlemat and bland action descriptions sketch the action, they don't (necessarily) determine the entirety of it. I added the necessarily because it occurs to me that limiting things to the battlemat truths is a valid playstyle, so long as you (or anyone else) enjoys playing that way.

You just MADE UP two different fictions for the two different scenarios. You didn't point out any necessary difference in the two scenarios in the fictional game.

In other words: the fiction you made up for scenario 1 could just as easily have applied to the rogue in scenario 2 and vice versa.
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
You just MADE UP two different fictions for the two different scenarios. You didn't point out any necessary difference in the two scenarios in the fictional game.

In other words: the fiction you made up for scenario 1 could just as easily have applied to the rogue in scenario 2 and vice versa.

Of course I made it up -- that's what fiction is. I do not understand that challenge at all, given we're talk about a game where we pretend to be elves.

As for the difference, the difference is that the rogue in scenario 2 didn't hide. No fiction as to why he was able to hide is necessary. It is for scenario 1. If you swap the descriptions of the scenarios, then you're describing things that didn't happen in game or things that did happen, but for some reason the fiction doesn't account for it.

So, if you want to get to the nitty gritty without the fancy trappings, the difference in the fiction is that one rogue hid and the other didn't. Seems pretty clear cut from there.
 

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