D&D 5E Teleport /fly /misty step the bane of cool dungeon design is RAW in 5E

[Mort]

Sometimes I just draw arcane symbols on certain walls, doors, floors or ceilings. They prevent (at the Dungeon Master's discretion, no explanation required) awkward shortcuts to obstacles.

I don't know about you, but I have at least one player who catalogues anything of that nature.

So you have to be both judicious and very consistent for anything like that!

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[Greg Benage]

Yup, flying around, casting fireballs, fighting dragons... not superheroic at all. Pretty mundane, really. That's just like what Bob from accounting can do.

That's pretty funny.

Obviously, magic-users have magic powers by definition. My point was that, even with magic powers, their extreme fragility in B/X means they don't play like superheroes. I'm no comic expert, but what superhero would you stat up with 28 hit points at max level? Maybe Charles Xavier...he kinda got one-shot in that prequel movie. On a ricochet, even. Maybe they were playing Rolemaster.

I never compared pcs to superheroes. Im saying that these spells are fine and that its the dm thats the problem if he cant handle players using these powers. It doesnt matter how many times a MU can cast a spell or how many exp it takes to get to 5th lvl. Thats actually the point of magic in these games to create a supernatural solution or shortcut. Is it unfair to nuke a group of kolbolds with a fireball? Is it fair that a cleric can speak with dead to find out who killed them? Ecery spell in the game is a shortcut to a solution. If you dont understand that, you shouldnt be the dm and I truely wonder if dnd is the right game for you. #endofrant.

I've been playing and running it for 37 years, despite my lack of understanding. I even created a couple ENnie Gold-winning settings for it. So there must be something about it I like.

For about 20 of those years, characters had fewer superpowers and felt less like superheroes. This is the point I've been attempting to make. I also prefer that older style of play, but that's just a subjective preference and there's no particular reason you should care. (One of those ENnie Gold-winning settings turned the superpowers up to 11, so my preferences aren't even exclusive. I've got some range, dude!)

 

[Tony Vargas]

In 5e, by third level there's a decent chance that EVERY character in the party can cast. This isn't really a balance issue, so much as a jarring thematic one.

Oh, it's a balance issue - intra-party balance will be closer if they all cast.

This sets a theme of high magic that some DMs aren't comfortable with, don't want.

I've been DMing Ebberron lately so this pervasive low level magic feel is actually perfect - it's a big part of the setting. As such, not only hasn't it been a problem, it's been a big boon.

Y'know 'pervasive low magic' is a better way of putting it than 'high magic.' High magic suggests +5 swords and meteor swarms. At-will cantrips and healing potions available in every town is pervasive magic.

But that's barely a quibble.

5e is fairly clear about being a high/pervasive/whatever magic game. Magic is called out, early in the introduction, as vital. Every class uses magic in some form, even if no items are available. That may or may not be a bane of 'cool design,' depending on the value you assign 'cool.' ::shrug::

 

[Yaarel]

[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] nails it.

• ‘Pervasive’ magic versus ‘Rare’ magic
• ‘High’ level magic versus ‘Low’ level magic

Eberron is ‘Low’ magic but ‘Pervasive’ magic.

D&D 1e (it seems to me) is ‘High’ magic but ‘Rare’ magic.

Game of Thrones is ‘Low’ magic and ‘Rare’ magic.

Harry Potter is ‘High’ magic and ‘Pervasive’ magic.

 

[Hussar]

Would it not be fair to say that 5e is both pretty pervasive and pretty high magic? It's pervasive in that most PC's can cast at some level and pretty high in that even the half casters get some pretty serious effects - including teleport

I guess my personal issue is that I would prefer if the game had strong options that allowed for rare magic. 4e allowed this out of the box with an all Martials campaign. The only magic the PC's would be chucking around would be limited to items. I don't really mind powerful magic, but, pervasive really has changed how the game plays.

Even in my current Thule campaign, where I have disallowed all full casters, I still have three out of five of the PC's spell capable and capable, even by 5th or 6th level of dropping spells in virtually every situation. Between the paladin and two rangers, they have a LOT of spell casting.

 

[Yaarel]

4e allowed this out of the box with an all Martials campaign.

The ‘power source’ (Martial, Arcane, Psionic, Primal, etcetera) is an excellent aspect of 4e design. One of the things I really miss in 5e.

In 4e, you can easily have an all-Martial campaign. For my 4e Feywild setting, I banned all Martial classes. The Feys are necessarily magical, and mundane skills are alien to them. There, a character who was a Martial Fighter was, by definition, from the Material plane having studied under Human tutelage. The Fey culture was Psionic, Arcane, or Primal, only.

4e lets you do all kinds of cool stuff like this.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Not sure what would stop you from doing an all-martial campaign, if you wished. Fighters, rogues, barbarians, and open-hand monks can cover a lot.

 

[Yaarel]

Not sure what would stop you from doing an all-martial campaign, if you wished. Fighters, rogues, barbarians, and open-hand monks can cover a lot.

For 5e, Xanthars Guide might make an all martial setting work out better? The additions of Rogue Inquisitive, Scout, and Fighter Cavelier, seem like they might be nice to diversify nonmagical archetypes.



(To me, Monk and Barbarian are both ‘low magic’.)

 

[Hussar]

Not sure what would stop you from doing an all-martial campaign, if you wished. Fighters, rogues, barbarians, and open-hand monks can cover a lot.

It's an extremely limited palette of classes. 2 fighter types, 2 rogue types, 1 monk and 1 barbarian. That's the extent of the choices.

I do agree that after Xanathar's (or if I delved a bit deeper into the Unearthed Arcana stuff) we'll have a bit more options.

Thing is, you've got no healing, at all, in that group. That's HURTS a lot. The lack of non-magical healing does make 5e somewhat tricky to use this way. But, mainly, it was the very serious lack of options that made me include some of the half caster classes like ranger and paladin.

 

[Yaarel]

Heh. Still need nonmagical Warlord coach-medic!