D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Arial Black]

Point buy that allows stats in the range of 3 to 18 has an objective advantage over point buy that sets limits of 8 and 15. It also has a corresponding disadvantage in that it lets powergamers go that much crazier.

There's a similar contrast between an array of 15,14,13,12,10,8 and an array of 18,15,13,9,7,3. Or, for that matter, 3d4+3 vs 3d6.

Agreed.

See! Was that so hard?

 

[Oofta]

Ya know, despite our disagreements I can somewhat get behind the idea of levelling the playing field. To a point.

Superman, to follow your example, has no place in a D&D game.

The question then becomes one of how level does it have to be to count as "level"? Smooth-as-marble (as given by array)? Level but with some bumps and hollows like a stucco wall (as given by point-buy)? Level from a distance but with swells and waves when seen from close up, like an ocean (as given by most rolling systems)?

Lan-"the ocean is never still"-efan

I don't think there is one true way, just a matter of preferences and compromises. For example I could see generating a list of all possible values you could get from a point buy system (including the ever-so-boring all 13's and a 12 if I remember correctly) and then rolling to see which value from the the list of arrays you use. If you want the old school feel, you could even assign numbers to ability scores randomly to simulate roll in order.

If you use a system that guarantees similar numbers (the card option for example), it seems like you're just using a pseudo-random system. At that point I think you might as well use my suggested list of arrays.

The reason I use the point buy compromise is that I've seen horrible, horrible differences. One character with multiple 18s while another had a high of 14 and most numbers below 10. If you have a "we're probably all going to die anyway" attitude, or only plan on playing that character for a short period of time, or swap out with other characters on a regular basis then it's probably not as big of a deal.

 

[Arial Black]

I don't think it's a disadvantage that I don't have the "option" of buying bread that is secretly loaded with arsenic at the store either.

I can't play all concepts with either rolling or point buy. With rolling I'm forced to play a concept based on the set of 6 numbers that random rolling gives me. Assuming standard 4d6 drop lowest I can't keep rolling until I come up with a concept that I want to play.

I should correct that: given an infinite number of characters I could play the nearly infinite number of concepts. Given an infinite number of monkeys, typewriters and bananas we could also generate the works of Shakespeare*.

Back in reality land I have to live in the real world where I play 1 character at a time, and unlike the grindhouse campaign Lanefan plays in (not that there's anything wrong with that), I'm probably going to play that character for a year or 2.

My limitation is set by 27 points, yours is limited to a 1 time roll of dice that results in 6 numbers that can't be modified. I'd rather have more flexibility thank you very much.

Which is, of course just my opinion and preference.

*and, coincidentally generate an infinite amount of monkey poo, which most people never think about.

Hooray! I agree with all that! If that was what you posted originally I would've had nothing to respond to.

We have both always maintained that each method, and each variation on each method, has its own advantages and disadvantages, and it's up to personal preference which method you think is 'best', for you.

We agree about that, and always did.

What did we disagree about? A specific claim.

Let's imagine that I had posted ideas similar to yours above; we agree. Imagine then that I had claimed that one advantage of rolling is that it allowed me to 'create the character I want'. Not coincidentally, identical to your claim about point-buy.

Now I could claim that I 'want' to play whatever the results of those rolls are, and you couldn't contradict that; just like I could not contradict the same claim you make about point-buy.

But it would sound like I was claiming that 'rolling lets players play whatever they want'. just like it sounded as if you were making that claim about point-buy for all potential players, as a factor players should take into account when deciding which method to use when generating ability scores.

The point I was making was that 'this method allows any player to play whatever they want' is simply not true. Not for point-buy. Not for rolling.

Edit: not your fault in any way, but that 'infinite monkeys' claim is provably untrue and it always bothers me when people assert it as fact; so much so that the general population rolled on 3d6 believes it to be a fact.

Which has nothing to do with our debate, it's just pressing one of my buttons.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The point I was making was that 'this method allows any player to play whatever they want' is simply not true. Not for point-buy. Not for rolling.

The point you were making it against was not literally anything, but anything within the parameters of the campaign. Making this point that you've fought so hard for, pointless.

The reality is the same as it was at the start:

Point buy gives you the maximum freedom to design the character you want, every time.

Array or random-and-arrange give you fewer degrees of freedom, you can choose how to distribute stats but not what they'll be. An array of 6 different numbers maximizes that freedom, while random might well deliver the same, it may also deliver two or more identical numbers (theoretically even 6, though it's unlikely), reducing the degree of freedom accordingly. It can also, for example, deliver a SAD array to a player wanting a MAD class or vice versa.

Random-in-order, of course, gives you the least ability to play the character you want. But, it has the corresponding advantage that it may spark an idea - you may get to play what you didn't even know you wanted.

For example I could see generating a list of all possible values you could get from a point buy system (including the ever-so-boring all 13's and a 12 if I remember correctly) and then rolling to see which value from the the list of arrays you use. If you want the old school feel, you could even assign numbers to ability scores randomly to simulate roll in order.

If you use a system that guarantees similar numbers (the card option for example), it seems like you're just using a pseudo-random system.

Not really, no, randomly determining which array is still random. I suppose you could get there, though, if you wanted to, all you need is a seed and a hashing function, and just count down the list of arrays, then back up to the top...

I don't think it's a disadvantage that I don't have the "option" of buying bread that is secretly loaded with arsenic at the store either.

If you don't know the arsenic content, it's not an option, it's a danger. If you do, hey, rat poison.

Off-the-cuff idea for a variant system that might allow a bit more range but still end up kind of balanced...?

Start with 12-12-12-12-13-13 (total 74, average = 12.33, close to the 12.24 that 4d6x1 gives). Swap points on a one-for-one basis (the total must always come to 74) to generate your stats with the following provisos and limits:

- no two stats may rise by more than 8 combined points (thus if one goes up by 5 no other can rise by more than 3)
- no single stat may fall by more than 9
- each stat must be different than each other stat
- no more than one pair of stats may total 30 or more

Workable?

Lanefan

Yeah, that's getting close to a de-facto array, just way more complicated. Especially because of the no-two-stats-alike proviso.

1-for-1 is kinda problematic, really, too.

 

[ccs]

I would hope and expect that the DM has at least the first adventure planned out before the roll-up session, if for no other reason than if roll-up goes quickly we can dive into adventuring the same night and not miss a beat.

eh, I'd say this happens about 50/50 when I'm in the DM seat.

Sometimes I provide a starting point, tell the players the opening situation & to make characters that will fit. For ex; our Sunday PF game. It began in Taldor with all the characters as part of a nobles entourage and attending a high court function. Other times it's known "Ok, we're playing SKT." And sometimes I have something in mind where it won't matter one wit what characters are generated.....

And then other times? We roll up characters & BS/talk about game ideas. Then I take a copy of the characters home & write something up over the course of the week.

 

[Yardiff]

Point buy/Standard Array is what the game is balanced around. All of the classes, all of the monsters, spell effects, everything, is all balanced on the assumption of that method of building your character and it makes a huge difference if you deviate from that, for the worse.

QUOTE]

Where does it say this? If you can link please.

Only in AL and Possibly conventions does it tell you a specific way to create a character and that is Standard Array.

If this assumption is true why does the PHB have 4d6 drop lowest as the first stat creation method?

 

[Yardiff]

eh, I'd say this happens about 50/50 when I'm in the DM seat.

Sometimes I provide a starting point, tell the players the opening situation & to make characters that will fit. For ex; our Sunday PF game. It began in Taldor with all the characters as part of a nobles entourage and attending a high court function. Other times it's known "Ok, we're playing SKT." And sometimes I have something in mind where it won't matter one wit what characters are generated.....

And then other times? We roll up characters & BS/talk about game ideas. Then I take a copy of the characters home & write something up over the course of the week.

Yes this pretty much depends on the GM and the playstyle he/she prefers. Is the story and the world build around the PCs or does the world exist in spite of the PCs.

 

[Maxperson]

Rolling for stats is pointless, it either gives you a turd character, an OP character, both of which are un-fun for other players at the table, or finally a well balanced character, in which case you could have just used point buy.

There's really no such thing as a turd character, or one that is OP. All kinds of characters can be fun and don't ruin the game unless the DM isn't at least average in ability and can handle the PCs, or the players suffer from stat envy.

Rolling stats is more fun is not a valid argument. Rolling stats takes a few minutes and is over after that point. While using point buy/standard array, may be less fun for a few minutes, is balanced and fun for the entire rest of the campaign.

It absolutely is a valid argument. The entire game is designed so that people have fun. You're seriously arguing that people should have less fun playing D&D. That's absurd. And I have to ask, who are you to tell people how long they should have fun for? My fun, high, low or middle stats, lasts the entire campaign.

Rolling for stats does not allow the player to create the character that they actually want to play, while the point buy system allows them to live the fantasy that they have thought up for their character, which is better.

I have tons of character concepts that can never, ever be realized via point buy or array. All of them, however, can happen with rolling.

 

[Maxperson]

I had posted this before, you either have forgotten or missed.

1e PHB pg 9.

"Furthermore, it is usually essential to the character's survival to be exceptional (with a rating of 15 or above) in no fewer than two ability characteristics."

That "usually" makes that not a rule, but rather a warning.

 

[Maxperson]

There are random stat generation methods which are guaranteed to be 'fair', not only in terms of equal starting chances (roulette, etc.) but also in terms of results.

I posted one such method earlier in this thread: the one where you deal cards to each stat. Random, but since everyone has the same cards and uses them all, every PC ends up with the same stat total.

'The rolling method' is actually many different variations of rolling, each (usually) mitigating one, some or all of the disadvantages of 'pure rolling', while retaining the advantages.

Point-buy has advantages/disadvantages too (although not every claimed advantage is actually true), but I haven't come across any point-buy variations that mitigate the disadvantages of point-buy.

I played in one game once where the DM and the 5 players all rolled 4d6-L once, and then all 5 players used those 6 stats.