D&D 5E Forced Movement in 5e ?

[Rya.Reisender]

For me falling damage from falling down when pushed off a cliff is part of the result of forced movement, yes.

If I place my NPCs bad and a player has the idea to push them down for easy victory, I see no reason not to reward that.
If the PCs are next to a cliff and I can instant kill them with a push I usually would make the NPCs first do actions that tell my players "Yes, these have means to push you." and only if my players don't get that hint, I'd finish them off.

 

[Nevvur]

I don't really have a formal system. In reality, you'll start to fall immediately once there's no ground below your feet, unless you have an upwards trajectory. By RAW, pushes and similar forced movement only occur on a horizontal plane. Even with enough force to push you 10 or 15 feet over the ledge, I suspect one would drop fast enough that you'd be even with the ledge long before (relatively speaking) you reached the maximum distance, providing an opportunity to catch the ledge. A Dexterity saving throw is appropriate in virtually every case, and as others have suggested, the DC can be modified by factors like creature size (and appendages), terrain, and distance beyond the ledge.

You wrote you're looking for consistency, so maybe something like this: Dexterity saving throw DC 10
Creature size: S = +5, M = 0, L = -5, H = -10. Assumes the creature has limbs that can grab the ledge. A gorgon could reasonably be expected to simply plummet.
Terrain: Rough/obstacles = -5, Flat = 0, Smooth = +5, Slippery = +10
Push distance beyond ledge: 5 feet = 0, 10 = feet = +5, 15 feet = +10

Again, just to be clear, I don't actually use a formal system to handle forced movement over ledges, mostly because it doesn't come up enough in my games. However, I would probably arrive at a DC similar to what the above prescribes when making a spot call for the DC.
[MENTION=6775477]Shiroiken[/MENTION] hints at the subject, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is to base the ruling on the style of game. In a game of gritty realism, I'm going to take the immediacy of gravity into greater consideration. In a wuxia game, gravity might not come into play until the end of the forced movement, effectively preventing a catch check if the distance beyond the ledge is greater than the reach of the creature.

Regardless of the game style, I'm permissive about letting mooks fly off the edge without a save. I've also designed combats that would be deadly+ if the PCs didn't try to push enemies off ledges.

 

[Harzel]

I don't really have a formal system. In reality, you'll start to fall immediately once there's no ground below your feet, unless you have an upwards trajectory. By RAW, pushes and similar forced movement only occur on a horizontal plane. Even with enough force to push you 10 or 15 feet over the ledge, I suspect one would drop fast enough that you'd be even with the ledge long before (relatively speaking) you reached the maximum distance, providing an opportunity to catch the ledge. A Dexterity saving throw is appropriate in virtually every case, and as others have suggested, the DC can be modified by factors like creature size (and appendages), terrain, and distance beyond the ledge.

You wrote you're looking for consistency, so maybe something like this: Dexterity saving throw DC 10
Creature size: S = +5, M = 0, L = -5, H = -10. Assumes the creature has limbs that can grab the ledge. A gorgon could reasonably be expected to simply plummet.
Terrain: Rough/obstacles = -5, Flat = 0, Smooth = +5, Slippery = +10
Push distance beyond ledge: 5 feet = 0, 10 = feet = +5, 15 feet = +10

If you were going to allow a DEX save, that all seems reasonable. However, assuming your reference to consistency was responding to my post, I think you might have misunderstood my point. If the pushee is on the edge of a cliff and gets pushed 10 ft and makes a DEX save (under whatever system) that leaves it dangling from the cliff edge, then, somehow, the pushee has not only prevented downward movement, it has also negated some of the horizontal movement.

Since the edge of a precipice does not, all other things being equal, afford more purchase to apply force horizontally than flat ground does, then consistency, IMO, would demand that the same save be available to arrest the horizontal movement in the case where the action takes place on a flat plain. (Perhaps you intended that? It didn't really sound like it.)

Again, just to be clear, I don't actually use a formal system to handle forced movement over ledges, mostly because it doesn't come up enough in my games. However, I would probably arrive at a DC similar to what the above prescribes when making a spot call for the DC.

@Shiroiken hints at the subject, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is to base the ruling on the style of game. In a game of gritty realism, I'm going to take the immediacy of gravity into greater consideration. In a wuxia game, gravity might not come into play until the end of the forced movement, effectively preventing a catch check if the distance beyond the ledge is greater than the reach of the creature.

Fascinating. I would have expected just the opposite, since I think of a cliff edge stopping lateral movement as cool and dramatic, but not realistic.

Regardless of the game style, I'm permissive about letting mooks fly off the edge without a save. I've also designed combats that would be deadly+ if the PCs didn't try to push enemies off ledges.

We definitely have different styles in that regard. In my games, as go the mooks, so go the PCs.

 

[Horwath]

if the push is just beyond the ledge then you could use dex save or athletics to grab the edge.

If pushed beyond tatural reach, no save. roll fall damage or insta kill.

 

[Nevvur]

[MENTION=6857506]Harzel[/MENTION] Thanks for clarifying your point. I did misunderstand, but I see what you're getting at now (I hope).

I look at forced movement over ledges roughly the same way I look at some features and spell effects with special conditions. Disintegrate causes 75 HP of normal damage. If the condition exists where there's no more HP, an additional effect comes into play - the target is reduced to ash. Forced movement across a flat surface causes normal forced movement. If the condition exists where there's no more surface, an additional effect comes into play - make a Dex save to arrest horizontal movement, as you put it.

I don't think the sort of consistency you're driving at is required because, as I see things, the different conditions imply the need for different treatment.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

I would like to add something to this discussion:

If we are talking about a bridge, or maybe the top of a tower or even a cliff, there might actually be some protection against falling off (rail, 3ft high wall). In that case by RAW, because pushes are "away from you" and not "up", would not actually move the target beyond the edge. That would be an easy way to prevent instant death dangers like that.

If the wall or rail isn't very high so it's not clear whether the target would hit the wall or not, you could always apply "when in doubt roll for it". This then could work even if you push the target far beyond the edge, because the roll determines whether the target hits the wall or flies over it rather than whether it can hold itself while falling down.

 

[Satyrn]

if the push is just beyond the ledge then you could use dex save or athletics to grab the edge.

If pushed beyond tatural reach, no save. roll fall damage or insta kill.

But what if they grab at the edge (or some object at the edge) as they're getting pushed away, before they get out of reach?

 

[Jaelommiss]

But what if they grab at the edge (or some object at the edge) as they're getting pushed away, before they get out of reach?

The exact same thing as if they grab the ground at their feet when being pushed away on flat ground: nothing, they still end up 10 feet away from their starting location because that's what the effect does. Put another way, if grabbing something to prevent movement is ineffective on flat ground, then it is equally ineffective on a cliff.

Perhaps there should have been a saving throw to resist the movement baked into the mechanic. I can certainly understand the arguement there. Personally I think there should have been one, though I can understand not including it for the sake of speeding up game play. Adding an additional saving throw for the DM to resolve for every hit a warlock makes with his normal attack cantrip has the potential to slow down the game significantly. It's far faster to link every hit with the forced movement, and if once in a while that throws someone from a cliff so far that they can't grab it, so be it. As a DM I'm glad that I don't have to deal with all of those extra dice, and the PCs taking a monster out of the fight instantly helps cut down on what I need to deal with. If I'm truly bothered by it I can just ramp up the pressure later.

From what I've seen, this ability is only really useful on rare occassion. Unless you're throwing someone into something dangerous (fire, Spike Growth, off a cliff, etc.) or playing movement speed games, it has little effect. To arbitrarily add an additional saving throw to resist it working is needlessly punitive. I don't give monsters a death save to resist being killed when the fighter brings them to 0HP. The monk beat the monster's AC? Great, it suffers the effects of a successful attack (1d6+4 damage and dies if that brings it to 0, Con save vs. Stunning Strike, unable to take reactions because of Flurry of Blows). The Warlock beat the monster's AC? Great, it suffers the effects of Eldritch Blast (1d10+3 damage and dies if that brings it to 0, pushed ten feet away).

 

[Harzel]

The exact same thing as if they grab the ground at their feet when being pushed away on flat ground: nothing, they still end up 10 feet away from their starting location because that's what the effect does. Put another way, if grabbing something to prevent movement is ineffective on flat ground, then it is equally ineffective on a cliff.

Precisely.

Perhaps there should have been a saving throw to resist the movement baked into the mechanic. I can certainly understand the arguement there. Personally I think there should have been one, though I can understand not including it for the sake of speeding up game play. Adding an additional saving throw for the DM to resolve for every hit a warlock makes with his normal attack cantrip has the potential to slow down the game significantly. It's far faster to link every hit with the forced movement, and if once in a while that throws someone from a cliff so far that they can't grab it, so be it. As a DM I'm glad that I don't have to deal with all of those extra dice, and the PCs taking a monster out of the fight instantly helps cut down on what I need to deal with. If I'm truly bothered by it I can just ramp up the pressure later.

From what I've seen, this ability is only really useful on rare occassion. Unless you're throwing someone into something dangerous (fire, Spike Growth, off a cliff, etc.) or playing movement speed games, it has little effect. To arbitrarily add an additional saving throw to resist it working is needlessly punitive. I don't give monsters a death save to resist being killed when the fighter brings them to 0HP. The monk beat the monster's AC? Great, it suffers the effects of a successful attack (1d6+4 damage and dies if that brings it to 0, Con save vs. Stunning Strike, unable to take reactions because of Flurry of Blows). The Warlock beat the monster's AC? Great, it suffers the effects of Eldritch Blast (1d10+3 damage and dies if that brings it to 0, pushed ten feet away).

I think people are generally concerned with giving PCs an extra chance, not so much their opponents, although as I mentioned earlier I prefer to treat all creatures the same in such matters.

 

[Horwath]

But what if they grab at the edge (or some object at the edge) as they're getting pushed away, before they get out of reach?

that could be general rule for all forced movement then. Because usualy there is somethnig in the way.