D&D 5E Which parts of D&D came from Tolkien?

[Oofta]

I think the question of whether we would have D&D if there had been no Tolkien is kind of misleading. D&D grew out of war gaming, but grew into adventurers plundering dungeons because that's what people were having fun doing. Other people picked up the game in large part because fantasy literature was popular, and D&D does echo a lot of Tolkien with his mixture of "good" races working together side by side.

But it was all part of one big ecosystem. The biggest influence of Tolkien to me is not specific bits and pieces but that all the races were more relatable. In mythology, the elder races are mysterious and dangerous, not someone you would view as a travelling companion. In norse mythology, unless you were from Asgard, by and large I don't think you would ever want to make a deal with a dwarf.

 

[Parmandur]

You do know that many of the monsters in the original monster manuals came from obscure mythological sources, right? Things that have no presence whatsoever in Tolkien, like Rakshasa and naga. Gygax and others were very clearly aware of and influenced by such things...Not to mention that Wagner's work is one of at least five different mythological variations on the same story (or rather set of stories). So, yes, the writers would have been very much aware of it.

Well, Gygax and company certainly had many sources of inspiration: one of the main reasons this thread exists, however, is that Gygax was not always entirely forthcoming with the truth on this matter.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Where are you getting "popular delusion" from? I certainly haven't seen anybody in this thread argue that he created or "single-handedly" mainstreamed the genre. Your arguing against a point of view that I don't think exists. Since you seem to be fond of hyperlinking to common knowledge, you may want to check out Straw man.

I might suggest that YOU look the term up, since you seem not to know what it means.

But he [Tolkien] popularized the genre. I don't think it would have occurred to the wargamers of the 70's to create fantasy roleplaying if Tolkien had died in WWI.

Compare/contrast:

Tolkien didn't create or single-handedly mainstream the entire genre either. Even within the realm of pulp "fantasy" fiction, stories like Robert Howard's Conan the Barbarian predate Lord of the Rings by decades...

main·stream
/ˈmānˌstrēm

1. belonging to or characteristic of the mainstream.
"mainstream politics"

synonyms: normal, conventional, ordinary, orthodox, conformist, accepted, established, recognized, common, usual, prevailing, popular

Did you imagine that you were the first, even within this thread, to touch on that claim?
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Exactly. It was a bunch of guys reenacting historical (or at least historically-inspired) battles with miniatures. Not fantasy battles. And then one day they pivoted into a new genre.

So you claim - yet somehow you still cannot wrap your head around the fact that fantasy/mythical fiction existed even within popular awareness or enthusiasm both before and after Tolkien? As well as a goodly dose of say, historical and military fiction and/or anachronism.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Well, Gygax and company certainly had many sources of inspiration: one of the main reasons this thread exists, however, is that Gygax was not always entirely forthcoming with the truth on this matter.

Gygax wasn't the only influence / creator of the game either. Every part of it has changed over time. From Gygax on elves:

Tolkien had them taller, more intelligent, more beautiful, and older than humans; in fact, he made them quite similar to the fair-folk, the fairies. The elves of the AD&D game system borrow two names (gray and wood) from the Professor's writings, and that is nearly all. They are shorter than humans, and not generally as powerful

As originally appearing, Gygax is correct. However, as D&D has evolved the D&D elf has become MORE Tolkienized.

 

[Remathilis]

So you claim - yet somehow you still cannot wrap your head around the fact that fantasy/mythical fiction existed even within popular awareness or enthusiasm both before and after Tolkien? As well as a goodly dose of say, historical and military fiction and/or anachronism.

The point isn't to say Tolkien is responsible for D&D, the point is to ask "how much of D&D was inspired by Tolkien's works". D&D has a lot of fantasy grandparents, certainly Vance and Moorcock are as much responsible for D&D as Tolkien is. To deny Tolkien his credit (both in terms of moving fantasy from the realms of "pulp novels and magazines" to that of respectable genre of western lit and on shaping the view of fantasy in many fans of the genre) borders on absurdity.

Put another way, nobody denies Science Fiction was a popular, if obscure, genre of movies in the 50s, and later; but nobody can deny the influence of 77's Star Wars on bringing the genre to mainstream audiences...

 

[Shadowdweller00]

The point isn't to say Tolkien is responsible for D&D, the point is to ask "how much of D&D was inspired by Tolkien's works". D&D has a lot of fantasy grandparents, certainly Vance and Moorcock are as much responsible for D&D as Tolkien is. To deny Tolkien his credit (both in terms of moving fantasy from the realms of "pulp novels and magazines" to that of respectable genre of western lit and on shaping the view of fantasy in many fans of the genre) borders on absurdity.

Just to put things in perspective, guy: What was the title and theme of the thread and OP once again? Hint: It wasn't quite "which elements of D&D were popularized by Tolkien?". Tolkien was certainly a major influence on the fantasy genre, but people, if anything, give Tolkien too much credit for shaping it. Mythological / fairy tale stories have permeated respectable, classical literature for centuries. Consider: King Arthur, The Canterbury Tales, Faust, Roland, various Shakespearean plays, the Aeneiad, the Odyssey...to name a token few.

 

[Remathilis]

Just to put things in perspective, guy: What was the title and theme of the thread and OP once again? Hint: It wasn't quite "which elements of D&D were popularized by Tolkien?". Tolkien was certainly a major influence on the fantasy genre, but people, if anything, give Tolkien too much credit for shaping it. Mythological / fairy tale stories have permeated respectable, classical literature for centuries. Consider: King Arthur, The Canterbury Tales, Faust, Roland, various Shakespearean plays, the Aeneiad, the Odyssey...to name a token few.

There could be a rather deep debate as to whether myth, legend, or fairy tales can rightly be lumped into the same realm of fantasy as Tolkien, Pratchett, Jordan, or Martin. Certainly, the myths and legends of old have shaped western lit (most would argue is mostly IS western lit) but the audience for Canterbury Tales or Odyssey was much different than the audience of A Song of Ice and Fire or Dragonriders of Pern.

 

[Arilyn]

I think you missed the point.

Of course I know that many...even most...monsters in D&D have sources other than Tolkien.

My question is whether we would even have "fantasy roleplaying" (or fantasy as a genre) in the absence of Tolkien. I am not suggesting he is the source of every idea, and yes he in turn got many of his ideas from other sources including English and northern European mythology (I'm surprised nobody has mentioned William Morris yet.)

But he popularized the genre. I don't think it would have occurred to the wargamers of the 70's to create fantasy roleplaying if Tolkien had died in WWI.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. Tolkien was hugely popular in the 1970s. The popularity of Lord of the Rings brought a lot of older fantasy to light. New authors began publishing fantasy, which wouldn't have been financially feasible for publishers without the professor's work. Science fiction authors and fans were aghast, because fantasy was eating into limited shelf space, and to make matters worse, a lot of it was very badly written. I remember the time period, and how hard it was to find the jewels amongst the crap.

In this climate, adding a chapter on fantasy war gaming for Chainmail would have seemed like a great idea. Gygax would have been appealing to the Tolkien fans, because it was so loved. Of course he drew from Tolkien, even if he himself preferred Swords and Sorcery. He could add elves, dwarves, wizards, trolls and ents, and players would understand the context. Purist wargamers, on the other hand, were very dismissive of this non-historical flight of fantasy.

When DnD was being developed from Chainmail, the Tolkien elements got stronger. Were there other influences? Of course. Did Gygax copy Tolkien faithfully? Of course not. Inspiration was heavily coming off Tolkien, however. Without that love for Tolkien in the 70s, fantasy would have remained obscure. Gygax and Arneson wouldn't have bothered with their fantasy supplement to Chainmail, and therefore, no DnD.

Role playing was an idea that had been simmering elsewhere. It's very possible that other creators might have come up with something. Would it have caught on? Maybe eventually, with a different set of circumstances making fantasy popular. Maybe even a different genre could have got the ball rolling. In the 70s, however, Tolkien popularized fantasy, allowing Gygax and Arneson to create the first commercial role playing game, which caught the public's fancy. And remember, most of the early adopters were university students. University was one of the places where Tolkien was especially appreciated. It all ties together, and yes, Tolkien is a major ingredient.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I might suggest that YOU look the term up, since you seem not to know what it means.

Compare/contrast:


Did you imagine that you were the first, even within this thread, to touch on that claim?
----
So you claim - yet somehow you still cannot wrap your head around the fact that fantasy/mythical fiction existed even within popular awareness or enthusiasm both before and after Tolkien? As well as a goodly dose of say, historical and military fiction and/or anachronism.

Wow. I sense anger in this one. (Show us on the doll where Saul Zaentz touched you, maybe?)

So now "popularized" == "single-handedly mainstreamed". Ok.

I will partially retract my claim that EGG & Co. would never have made D&D if it hadn't been for Tolkien, but they may as well not have: it wouldn't have found a large, receptive audience if there weren't so many Tolkien fans.

The analogy to Star Wars that Remathilis makes below is apt, I think. Sure, there was science fiction before Star Wars. But Star Wars made it cool.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Sure, there were other kinds of fantasy fiction around before Tolkien was first published, but his work was the beginning of epic fantasy, which is also what a lot of D&D is. So while the debate of how many elements of D&D owe their existence to Tolkien or some other author, the style of the game, the feel of a campaign, are very much thanks to Tolkien and, to a lesser extent, other fantasy writers who followed in Tolkien's footsteps by writing in the same style.