D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Hussar]

Not only is it not persuasive, it wasn't even my argument!! It takes no more skill to roll low than high, but then I didn't say that it did. What DOES take more skill is to be successful with low stats, which is something only rolling allows for(by RAW(yes I know how you feel about that)). The skill involved with system mastery in point buy is miniscule compared to rolling low. The skill is over and done with in a very, very small fraction of the game, where low stats is for most or all of the campaign.

That's not really accurate though. You can simply arrange a standard array such that your prime stats are lower. Sure, secondary stats will be higher, but, then, the point is to add challenge to the character right? So, he's going to have a harder time, most of the time. And since die rolling will rarely result in an array that is lower than standard array across the board, it's really not any different.

Well, the difference is in the amount of control in chargen, but, after that, it doesn't really matter if your fighter has a 13 Str because you rolled it or because you chose it.

Additionally, die rolled characters will consistently have at least one higher die roll above 15, meaning that most die rolled characters will actually not achieve what it is you are looking for.

 

[Hussar]

Or just play with people you trust. My players have on occasion rolled without me, and the numbers I get are proof positive that they don't cheat. I get many more average and low stat rolls than high ones, as you'd expect.

That's actually a bit surprising considering the very generous chargen rules you use. That's some seriously unlucky players.

 

[Maxperson]

That's not really accurate though. You can simply arrange a standard array such that your prime stats are lower. Sure, secondary stats will be higher, but, then, the point is to add challenge to the character right? So, he's going to have a harder time, most of the time. And since die rolling will rarely result in an array that is lower than standard array across the board, it's really not any different.

While technically true, in practice this just doesn't happen. I suppose someone has done it somewhere, but it almost always takes low rolls to to cause that to happen in actual game play.

That's actually a bit surprising considering the very generous chargen rules you use. That's some seriously unlucky players.

You have no idea. I had to make the change generation rules and have them just roll randomly to see which stats got bumps, until they hit the minimum stat point number for just that reason. I got tired of watching them roll as many as 6 times to hit the minimum.

 

[Hussar]

Heh. That's funny.

But, as far as the die rolling goes though, it's really a wash isn't it? Most players are going to put their highest numbers in the most critical stats for their character. Now, if we were rolling in order, then I could understand. But, overall, there isn't going to be much difference. Most die rolled PC's will have at least one 15 or higher, which will go in that combat stat. It's a pretty rare die rolled character that has no rolls of 15 or higher.

 

[Maxperson]

Heh. That's funny.

But, as far as the die rolling goes though, it's really a wash isn't it? Most players are going to put their highest numbers in the most critical stats for their character. Now, if we were rolling in order, then I could understand. But, overall, there isn't going to be much difference. Most die rolled PC's will have at least one 15 or higher, which will go in that combat stat. It's a pretty rare die rolled character that has no rolls of 15 or higher.

Yep, they will. That's why it takes bad rolling to make it more challenging for the players. Average or good rolling, point buy, and arrays will all result in good adventurers. And I'm not saying low rolls happen often, only that they make the game more of a challenge to that player when it happens.

5e mitigates that more than the other editions, though. Stats are near the bottom of importance in this edition. Feats, abilities, magic items, etc., have more of an impact on the game.

 

[Hriston]

That's not control.

Here's a standard definition of control: the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events. When you choose to roll 4d6 and drop the lowest die versus taking the standard array, you are influencing the numbers that end up on your character sheet such that you're increasing the chance that you will get scores that are better than what the standard array gives you. You're also increasing your chance of getting worse scores, but by a smaller amount because 4d6 drop lowest has a higher chance of better scores and a lower chance of worse scores. So you're controlling the outcome in that direction.

Just........wow! I should expect a 1 in 5517 chance to happen? I've been playing for about 34 years and I'd be surprised if I rolled up 500 PCs, and certainly not more than 1000. Even if I go with the upper end of 1000, it would be 120ish more years before I could expect that to have happened ONCE. So yeah, it's freaking slim.

I agree the chances are slim, and yet it's one of the most probable outcomes of 4d6 drop lowest. For it to be a "colossal coincidence", it would have to be colossally less probable than other outcomes, and the standard array is not.

The rules specify rolling for. The rolling rules are in the PHB. Unless you're suggesting that the PHB is for players only, those rules are also for the DM and his NPCs. I hope you aren't suggesting that, though, since it hasn't been true for any edition of the game yet. I suppose you could also be suggesting that the designers were too stupid to put the rolling rules for NPCs into the game, yet told you to roll anyway. Which one is it?

The rolling rules for adventurers, members of an adventuring class, are in the PHB. The chapter they are given in explicitly leads you through the process of creating a character for the purpose of "playing an adventurer" in the game. Now, that isn't to say they're for players only, and not for the DM to use. The DMG explicitly states that the DM can create NPCs that are members of an adventuring class by using the rules in the PHB. I also don't think it was stupidity or an oversight to leave out rules for rolling the ability scores of other NPCs. Clearly the intent is that you, the DM, can choose whatever method seems appropriate to determine (or not determine) the ability scores of any NPCs in your milieu.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Not only is it not persuasive, it wasn't even my argument!! It takes no more skill to roll low than high, but then I didn't say that it did.

Nor did I imply that you said any such thing, rather you said:

Rolling stats doesn't remove an iota of the skill from D&D, though. In fact, it highlights the skill more if I roll poorly, than any point buy or array ever will. If I can use my skill to do well with low stats, I'm doing better than someone doing just as well with higher stats.

Which implies that it takes less skill to play well with high stats, which can get from rolling (in fact, the method is intentionally skewed to deliver better stats).

And, of course, rolling or using array removes the elements of system mastery enabled in point-buy...

The skill involved with system mastery in point buy is miniscule compared to rolling low. The skill is over and done with in a very, very small fraction of the game, where low stats is for most or all of the campaign.

They're very different skill sets, system mastery can be a deep/involved/systematic sort of skill, and it's essentially a technical skill. Compensating for bad stats in play, rather than with system mastery at charge/level up (pick classes/races/feats less impacted by the bad stat, for instance), would be less that 'technical' sort of skill, more like interpersonal skills ('reading' and 'gaming' your DM, mainly).

While technically true, in practice this just doesn't happen. I suppose someone has done it somewhere, but it almost always takes low rolls to to cause that to happen in actual game play.

You can't make a blanket statement on a forum without someone popping up to present themselves as a counterexample. For once, it's me. ;P

Yeah, I've totally gone there, not just one-off, but with characters I played for years. In both cases the jilted primary was STR, a 3.0 fighter (no, not using Weapon Finesse) and a 4e Warlord (at release, so before the whole 'lazy' builds got support).

But, the point is, if you want a character with a somewhat lower primary and something else a bit higher, you can have it - and, whether you're using the 5e PH point buy variant, or the default, you necessarily do it by choice, since even random lets you arrange...

 

[Lanefan]

I also don't think it was stupidity or an oversight to leave out rules for rolling the ability scores of other NPCs. Clearly the intent is that you, the DM, can choose whatever method seems appropriate to determine (or not determine) the ability scores of any NPCs in your milieu.

I think it was either stupidity (if intentionally done) or an oversight (if unintentionally done) not to at least give a guideline or default for this, with a notation that what's written is only a guideline and an individual DM may do otherwise should such make sense for her setting. Two or three lines of text, tops - I'm sure they could have made it fit.

 

[Oofta]

I think it was either stupidity (if intentionally done) or an oversight (if unintentionally done) not to at least give a guideline or default for this, with a notation that what's written is only a guideline and an individual DM may do otherwise should such make sense for her setting. Two or three lines of text, tops - I'm sure they could have made it fit.

I think it was simply a decision that there is no good way of generating ability scores for NPCs and is completely unnecessary. Ability scores for NPCs adds no value to the game unless the ability scores are needed.

There are no rules for generating what types of plants grow in a specific area either, because it's not needed.

Kind of reminds me of a joke

Cop sees man searching on his hands and knees under a light and asks "Are you OK? Did you lose something?"
Man replies "Yeah, I lost my keys over there" pointing off into the darkness.
Cop asks "Then why are you searching here?"
Man replies "Because the light is better."​

Sometimes it's better to have no rule at all when there is no good rule.

 

[Hussar]

I think it was either stupidity (if intentionally done) or an oversight (if unintentionally done) not to at least give a guideline or default for this, with a notation that what's written is only a guideline and an individual DM may do otherwise should such make sense for her setting. Two or three lines of text, tops - I'm sure they could have made it fit.

There is a default though:

Pick the numbers you want. That's the default. Actually, the default is "don't sweat it and don't worry about the numbers since they're not really important (as in not needed). Here's a couple of traits you can give NPC's to flesh them out sufficiently".

If you want to go beyond that, that's fine. Go right ahead. But, it's not necessary or required.