D&D 5E I really like orcs & goblins, and stories that incorporate them.

[TheCosmicKid]

I agree with [MENTION=6853887]zeldafan42[/MENTION], I like orcs and gobins as classic antagonists, but I dislike them being portrayed as "inherently evil". Worshipping evil gods? Sure. Practicing evil magic? Okay. Aggressive? Violent? Selfish? Wasteful? Sure. But to have culture you need society, and to have society you need some inherent need to work together. Maybe it's an oppressive tyrant who focuses their aggression outward at human civilization, that's fine and all. I think it adds depth to their culture to explain why they do bad things, as opposed to doing evil for the sake of evil. That's the realm of demons and devils. And I think it is more appropriate to have "evil for the sake of evil" covered by true monsters and not simply "other" humanoids.

Who says that humanoids can't be true monsters? Might it not add some tension to the story if there are true monsters that are not stuck on another plane of existence, but sharpening their blades less than a day's march from town?

 

[Sunseeker]

Who says that humanoids can't be true monsters? Might it not add some tension to the story if there are true monsters that are not stuck on another plane of existence, but sharpening their blades less than a day's march from town?

Who said anything about demons and devils being "stuck" on another plane?

Also, I just don't plum like the idea of mortal humanoids being innately evil. Sure, they can hate you, be opposed to everything you stand for, want to destroy you and every last element of your society....but given the chance, I suspect most of you would do the same to them.

 

[Slit518]

When I make the villainous characters for a campaign, I always come into the "why" are they doing this?

I rarely have a character acting evil for evil's sake.

Instead, there is usually a driving motivation or factor.

And it could range from truly evil acts to situational evil acts.

Once in a while, I mix & mingle orcs & goblins with the normal civilizations of the world, just like normal characters.

But the story also boils down to the region it's taking place, and the politics of that region.

So for example if it's a town/village/city that is accepting of most/all races, it might not be unusual to see orcs or goblins mingling with the locals, as long as everyone is keeping peace between them.

But there may be areas where there is tension.

Well, what causes this tension?

The orcs raid! Why do they raid?

To get supplies they lack!

It's not the nearby towns; villages; cities responsibility to supply the orcs with things they don't have!

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Who said anything about demons and devils being "stuck" on another plane?

Standard D&D campaign setup: orcs are here, fiends are usually elsewhere, and only rarely able to make incursions. If your campaign has the fiends here, I submit that you may just be using them as substitute orcs.

Also, I just don't plum like the idea of mortal humanoids being innately evil.

De gustibus non est disputandum, but what I'm getting at is that the line you're drawing is kind of arbitrary, especially since you accept that other kinds of creature can be innately evil. Somebody else might just as easily draw the line elsewhere. Why are orcs on the "not innately evil" side of the line? Why are/aren't giants? Dragons? Undead? And so on.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

When I make the villainous characters for a campaign, I always come into the "why" are they doing this?

I rarely have a character acting evil for evil's sake.

Sure. Everybody has a motivation for doing what they're doing. Even Asmodeus, Supreme Lord of the Nine Hells, doesn't do evil for no reason.

 

[Sunseeker]

Standard D&D campaign setup: orcs are here, fiends are usually elsewhere, and only rarely able to make incursions. If your campaign has the fiends here, I submit that you may just be using them as substitute orcs.

I submit that you have your position backwards: that orcs have classically held the place of demons.

As far as "standard D&D setup" goes that's a weak argument. Since I can't think of an official campaign in recent years (lets say, the last decade) where orcs were innately evil. As bad guys? As bad guys whose motivations we never analyzed? Sure. I don't think that's the same as saying they're born evil though.

De gustibus non est disputandum, but what I'm getting at is that the line you're drawing is kind of arbitrary, especially since you accept that other kinds of creature can be innately evil. Somebody else might just as easily draw the line elsewhere. Why are orcs on the "not innately evil" side of the line? Why are/aren't giants? Dragons? Undead? And so on.

Of course there's no accounting for taste. And certainly someone could draw the line elsewhere. In none of my statements have I not prefaced my comments with "I think..." or "IMO..." or "My preference is..."

My orcs are not innately evil because I find it more interesting for them not to be. It makes more sense to me that a mortal race, requiring food, rest, companionship and all the other functions of the flesh would have rationalized motivations for seeking the things they need, just like anyone else. Immortal races that do not require food (or require vast quantities or unique foods) do not require rest or companionship therefore do not play by the same rules. They have no needs driving their actions, only wants. Orcs may do what is perceived as evil only because their goals, values and needs conflict with ours.

In case you were asking, IMO:
Giants aren't innately evil for the same reason, they're just big humanoids.
Undead are by-and-large non-sentient. The few that are (and I stress few) are usually created via black magic that corrupts the mind/body/soul. Some undead may fight against this, but the "cure" for their corruption is usually final death.
Dragons walk the line because they are nearly immortal, but have all the same physical needs as a mortal, just 100 fold. Dragons gravitate toward ideological extremes as they age. As their perspective disconnects from mortality.

I've already gone through and addressed this with all the races in my setting.

 

[Blue]

In 13th Age, Orcs literally bumble forth from the ground as concentrated malevolence. Sure, they can breed, but they are inherently evil in a way that can not be denied.

On the other hand, half orcs have choice and many are among the good and the neutral. They also can come from parents that neither is orc (but likely has orc somewhere up the ancestor chain). Half orcs are actually protected/favored by the druids. (Go go hybrid vigor!)

 

[Slit518]

In 13th Age, Orcs literally bumble forth from the ground as concentrated malevolence. Sure, they can breed, but they are inherently evil in a way that can not be denied.

On the other hand, half orcs have choice and many are among the good and the neutral. They also can come from parents that neither is orc (but likely has orc somewhere up the ancestor chain). Half orcs are actually protected/favored by the druids. (Go go hybrid vigor!)

And in the original Warcraft games they would kill and conquer everything on their planet because of an insatiable blood lust. After their planet was wiped of any sentient species, a portal opened up elsewhere and they started their carnage on whatever planet Warcraft takes place on.

 

[Sunseeker]

And in the original Warcraft games they would kill and conquer everything on their planet because of an insatiable blood lust. After their planet was wiped of any sentient species, a portal opened up elsewhere and they started their carnage on whatever planet Warcraft takes place on.

As a long time WoW player, orcish history has been tempered in their attempts to expand upon it. Some tribes are more violent than others, less conquerors, more shamans, and much of their collective violence was written to be at the behest of the Burning Legion (demon hordes). Also, the main planet the game takes place on is Azeroth. Discounting the Iron Horde in alternate Draenor, the orcish invasions (both of them) were fronts for the Burning Legion because the Legion's target has always been Azeroth.

Which is probably fairly true of D&D as well. "Monstrous races" have become decidedly less "monstrous" and more "natural races" as the game as grown over the decades.

 

[Slit518]

As a long time WoW player, orcish history has been tempered in their attempts to expand upon it. Some tribes are more violent than others, less conquerors, more shamans, and much of their collective violence was written to be at the behest of the Burning Legion (demon hordes). Also, the main planet the game takes place on is Azeroth. Discounting the Iron Horde in alternate Draenor, the orcish invasions (both of them) were fronts for the Burning Legion because the Legion's target has always been Azeroth.

Which is probably fairly true of D&D as well. "Monstrous races" have become decidedly less "monstrous" and more "natural races" as the game as grown over the decades.

The era I'm talking about is Warcraft 1 to Warcraft 3. If I am not mistaken, didn't Warcraft start out as a Dungeons and Dragons setting?

And I think originally they were modeling the orcs after Tolkein's evil orcs. But at least with Tolkein, his orcs had a reason to be evil. They were elves whom were tortured by the dark lord Morgoth for millenniums. This twisted their features, minds, and souls into pitiful beings whom had nothing but hatred and malice in their heads and hearts up at that point.