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D&D 5E I really like orcs & goblins, and stories that incorporate them.

I submit that you have your position backwards: that orcs have classically held the place of demons.
Classically, orcs are demons. The word orc probably derives from Latin Orcus, and is explicitly defined in one Old English glossary as "hel-deofol".

As far as "standard D&D setup" goes that's a weak argument. Since I can't think of an official campaign in recent years (lets say, the last decade) where orcs were innately evil. As bad guys? As bad guys whose motivations we never analyzed? Sure. I don't think that's the same as saying they're born evil though.
Sorry, I was unclear. I wasn't making the claim that official campaigns say this. Frankly, I don't play official campaigns enough to comment one way or the other. I was just calling attention to the geography as described in sources like the Monster Manual, where orcs tend to be a threat that is nearby on the Material Plane, and demons are not. And this basic pattern is generally followed in official and homebrew campaigns, in my experience. Then I was saying that, given this pattern, making the nearby threat intrinsically evil might create a campaign with more tension than one where the only intrinsic evil threat is the distant one. Doesn't have to be this way. You're certainly not doing things wrong if you don't do it this way. But it's one reason a DM might have intrinsically evil orcs.

I will mention, though, that the 5E PHB comments on orc alignment on p. 122, describing a situation that's something of a middle ground: orcs are created by evil deities, and evil deities being evil they have no use for free will, so orcs feel a strong innate pull towards evil. But it's not completely irresistible, unlike the devils in the next paragraph which are essentially evil. This, again, is a premise that could have fascinating consequences in the hands of a good writer or DM, and, pace [MENTION=6853887]zeldafan42[/MENTION], is far from simply an excuse to have guilt-free slaughter.

Undead are by-and-large non-sentient. The few that are (and I stress few) are usually created via black magic that corrupts the mind/body/soul. Some undead may fight against this, but the "cure" for their corruption is usually final death.
Which is also a fair description for Tolkien's orcs, or the fel orcs of the Warcraft universe, or arguably the orcs described in the PHB.
 

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Which is probably fairly true of D&D as well. "Monstrous races" have become decidedly less "monstrous" and more "natural races" as the game as grown over the decades.
Which kind of bums me out, especially since it seems more like an unquestioned assumption about how the world works rather than a creative choice. Almost everything in the Monster Manual is a true-breeding ordinary biological species just because that's the first thing we, as 21st-Century scientifically-educated people, expect. I want to see more stuff like "Orcs were once cruel human bandits who infested the lawless Blackbough Forest. But after they robbed and killed the son of a powerful sorceress, she placed a curse upon the forest, twisting the inhabitants' physical forms to match their twisted souls."
 

The era I'm talking about is Warcraft 1 to Warcraft 3. If I am not mistaken, didn't Warcraft start out as a Dungeons and Dragons setting?
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. The original Blizzard team were colossal Games Workshop fans. Tried to get the license to make a Warhammer game, couldn't, published it anyway as Warcraft. Then they tried again with 40K and Starcraft. And the Games Workshop guys have probably kicked themselves every day for the past twenty years.
 

As a long time WoW player, orcish history has been tempered in their attempts to expand upon it. Some tribes are more violent than others, less conquerors, more shamans, and much of their collective violence was written to be at the behest of the Burning Legion (demon hordes). Also, the main planet the game takes place on is Azeroth. Discounting the Iron Horde in alternate Draenor, the orcish invasions (both of them) were fronts for the Burning Legion because the Legion's target has always been Azeroth.

Which is probably fairly true of D&D as well. "Monstrous races" have become decidedly less "monstrous" and more "natural races" as the game as grown over the decades.

They were never all that particularly monstrous except by label.
They were just "humans, except it is totally fine to murder them all down to the last living being because they aren't 'human' humans and all universally 2-dimensional evil and stupid and hopeless who literally popped into existence simply because they were rolled on the encounter table and have no story before or after"


The fact that you think there has been anything lost I dare say speaks you a certain psychopathic tendency that you feel you are no longer able to fully engage in with total social support in doing so.

More to the fact well... you are wrong on a very deep level. The whole concept of Orcs and Goblins in D&D were totally ripped right off from Tolkien. The term "orc" had never previously been applied to any concept of a monstrous humanoid previously... and goblins? They were like malicious leprechauns. The idea that they were something humans would kill using swords, much more so that they were very weak and easily defeated peoples that would be killed by swords by the dozens by any decently trained warrior.... that's all Tolkien.

And you know what? One of the aspects Tolkien expressed never being happy about his seminal work was that he had this whole peoples that just got painted with this broad brush of being the "evil ones" like it was just fundamentally genetically true and nothing could be done about it. It had implications that he wasn't terribly comfortable with. Had he decided to continue his Middle Earth stories, it is almost a certainty that he would have had these stock evil races becoming more human.

In fact, approaching the whole thing with any level of maturity, any level of intellectual honesty whatsoever kind of forces you to do so.

The idea that you have these humans who are just slightly warped in dimensions who are all righteous and perfect and good and universally trustworthy and deserving of endless worship and praise on one side... then you have these other humans on this other side who have slightly more beastial features and unusual skin colors and they are all wicked and thoroughly flawed and universally aggressively violent and deserving of complete derision and extermination on the other side... its clearly the mentality of an angry child.

On one side, if the former group is all so flawless and incapable of doing anything that would make them even slightly disagree at any point, then why haven't they just bred together and blended into a single race of people that might just be a slightly more broad version of humanity? Surely if there are issues that are keeping these peoples fairly divided into neat little separately living species communities, there have to be some deep flaws to them. Not every individual, not even most individuals, can be painted with this broad benevolent brush. But, at the same time, let us say that each group can still hold themselves up as being generally moral, those flaws cannot be overwhelming. Still, given that they are meant to be exaggerations of humanity, each in their own way, this can be used as a method for really giving their society some uniqueness and depth. They have their merits, but also their own prejudices and vices and social issues that also define them.

And when you get to those "evil" humanoids? Well, it doesn't require a very intelligent person to realize a society where every single last individual acted completely selfishly, maliciously, destructively and violently towards everyone all the time without fail would just not work at all. In such a society children would be incapable of surviving to adulthood... or, at least, would do so very rarely meaning that such a people would never be fielding armies large enough to threaten civilized settlements that have use of late middle ages technology, much less magic. And even then, it is almost certain that any such group would just dissolve itself-- as every individual would benefit more on their own than they would continuing to associate with a society where they must be paranoid at all times and can expect no one to keep their word or fulfill their duties or generally function at any point unless directly personally and immediately benefiting from their action. The only way you could have such a society is if it was tightly controlling its land and borders and could police its population-- something that doesn't remotely describe the orcs and goblins in virtually any D&D setting. Instead, we only see them as these small scattered groups that live within the lands that are entirely dominated by other peoples with no explanation as to how they could possibly have gotten there and formed a community without drawing notice and military action to drive them out.

But, then, we can see in the real world plenty of societies both modern and historical where based on their actions towards those who were not part of the society, we would describe them as evil. In fact, we can look at historical societies that people would be very hesitant to label as "evil", but an examination of their actions towards outsiders... or even to how they treat those within their society who fail to meet the standards, and one would be hard pressed to deny that the 'evil' label might just apply (with maybe the excuse 'oh, those were different times and this is perfectly moral behavior in their context'). So the idea would be less about every individual being evil all the time and more about how the society itself acts against outsiders, particularly the society that the PCs are likely to arise from.... although, if the PCs are treating these other humanoids in just as brutal of a manner, then one should admit that these 'good' and 'evil' labels have no meaning and are thoroughly arbitrary and in and of itself there is a story to tell there. The kind of story that is worth pondering and should make one consider how we act towards others in the real world and why we do so.

But the fun thing about orcs and goblins? They are somehow both very well known while, amazingly, at the same time being almost entirely undefined.

In various settings, dwarfs are hardly any different. Always their appearance, their mannerisms, their general society and belief... you barely ever see variation of any sort there. Elves do get more variation, but usually it only comes in some off-shoot subrace of elves with some modifier attached to them. But generally, if one is talking vanilla elves then everyone knows what they look like, everyone has a pretty good grasp on their mannerisms and belief systems and abilities....

But Orcs and Goblins? From setting to setting, edition to edition, even the basics of their appearances aren't very consistent... Orcs are bulky and Goblins are small (well, vanilla goblins), but beyond that? What exactly do they believe? What are their common mannerisms? If one spends an hour each playing Total War: WarHammer, World of WarCraft and Shadow of War... and you tell them that each of those things is an 'Orc', I think one would be left quite confused. But all three interpretations are quite a lot of fun because the race was enough of a blank slate that there was a lot to fill in there to make them interesting.

You can just about give any culture you want to your Orcs and your Goblins, you can pull from just about any human influence, you can give them whatever merits and flaws you like... so long as the former is still brawny kind of dim people and the later is small and sneaky people, people will just accept it. Any setting can really just own them and really shape them into something fun.

D&D's single largest failing is that instead of trying to capitalize on these familiar fantasy races that are found in other media, are already popular and people already have ideas about, they continue to try to come up with half-baked :):):):):):) ideas and pushing them really hard-- all hoping that they will somehow hit on the great new fantasy race that all other worlds will want to copy, but they will hold the IP and patent on.
 

Which kind of bums me out, especially since it seems more like an unquestioned assumption about how the world works rather than a creative choice. Almost everything in the Monster Manual is a true-breeding ordinary biological species just because that's the first thing we, as 21st-Century scientifically-educated people, expect. I want to see more stuff like "Orcs were once cruel human bandits who infested the lawless Blackbough Forest. But after they robbed and killed the son of a powerful sorceress, she placed a curse upon the forest, twisting the inhabitants' physical forms to match their twisted souls."

I think that's fine for specific setting lore, but I don't think it works well with a more generalized system-game like D&D. To point back upwards at how 13th Age, which uses a specific setting addresses orcs, I think that's fine in a microcosm. I don't think it's appropriate for larger more "kitchen sink" games like D&D though. Larger system-games should always err on the general, and allow the DM to get more specific.

Classically, orcs are demons. The word orc probably derives from Latin Orcus, and is explicitly defined in one Old English glossary as "hel-deofol".
I'm not going to speculate on the origin of the word. Arguing to "the definition of the word" is a poor argument, especially when something has undergone many permutations to reach the point it is at now.

Sorry, I was unclear. I wasn't making the claim that official campaigns say this. Frankly, I don't play official campaigns enough to comment one way or the other. I was just calling attention to the geography as described in sources like the Monster Manual, where orcs tend to be a threat that is nearby on the Material Plane, and demons are not. And this basic pattern is generally followed in official and homebrew campaigns, in my experience. Then I was saying that, given this pattern, making the nearby threat intrinsically evil might create a campaign with more tension than one where the only intrinsic evil threat is the distant one. Doesn't have to be this way. You're certainly not doing things wrong if you don't do it this way. But it's one reason a DM might have intrinsically evil orcs.
I never suggested any method was wrong, merely that there are certain methods I don't like. I like more nuanced games and I'm more than happy to have humans fight humans.

I will mention, though, that the 5E PHB comments on orc alignment on p. 122, describing a situation that's something of a middle ground: orcs are created by evil deities, and evil deities being evil they have no use for free will, so orcs feel a strong innate pull towards evil. But it's not completely irresistible, unlike the devils in the next paragraph which are essentially evil. This, again, is a premise that could have fascinating consequences in the hands of a good writer or DM, and, pace @zeldafan42, is far from simply an excuse to have guilt-free slaughter.

Which is also a fair description for Tolkien's orcs, or the fel orcs of the Warcraft universe, or arguably the orcs described in the PHB.
I have no problem with what 5E says about orcs. I think being created by an evil deity, or even naturally-born and worshipping an evil deity are great motivations for conflict between two people's. I get that some people want to play a game where they go out and stomp some orcs, that's their preference, it's not mine. That's all I was saying.

The era I'm talking about is Warcraft 1 to Warcraft 3. If I am not mistaken, didn't Warcraft start out as a Dungeons and Dragons setting?

And I think originally they were modeling the orcs after Tolkein's evil orcs. But at least with Tolkein, his orcs had a reason to be evil. They were elves whom were tortured by the dark lord Morgoth for millenniums. This twisted their features, minds, and souls into pitiful beings whom had nothing but hatred and malice in their heads and hearts up at that point.

I don't know honestly, it wouldn't surprise me. I played very little of the original RTS games. I would agree they are modeled after the Tolkein orcs as well. You get tortured by an evil overlord with dark magic long enough, it's gonna screw you up. Maybe the orcs of Mordor are irredeemable, but at least we can argue that they are irredeemable not because of some "born evil" element, but because of the hand of an evil overlord.

The fact that you think there has been anything lost I dare say speaks you a certain psychopathic tendency that you feel you are no longer able to fully engage in with total social support in doing so.

I'm going to respond to this once, and only once. I'm not sure if you're talking to me, but since I'm the only one you quoted and you appear to be using "you" in a singular sense, I can only assume as much. So far I have taken part in a reasonable discussion among people who have differing views on how orcs could be innately evil or how orcs could not be innately evil. I have found this discussion to be level-headed and non-accusatory until now.

So I'm not sure if you are speaking to someone else or speaking to be, since I have at no point expressed that I find the concept of "innately evil orcs" to be appealing. Further, accusing me of having psychopathic tendencies is WAY out of line and I highly suggest you either re-read my post and my positions or explain exactly to whom you were speaking if not to me. In either case, should any further responses accuse me or others of being psychopaths you will be ignored and reported as appropriate.
 

Yup, I like my orcs irredeemably evil. Sure, in the real world true "evil" only exists hand-in-hand with mental illness, and most evil is relative. But just as I don't care if every object in my fantasy world obeys the laws of physics, I also don't care if every culture in my fantasy world obeys the laws of...anthropology? If I want moral relativism and "one man's patriot is another man's terrorist" I'll read the paper.

Plus I don't want my players to have tie themselves in philosophical knots in order to justify killing orcs.
 
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So I'm not sure if you are speaking to someone else or speaking to be, since I have at no point expressed that I find the concept of "innately evil orcs" to be appealing. Further, accusing me of having psychopathic tendencies is WAY out of line and I highly suggest you either re-read my post and my positions or explain exactly to whom you were speaking if not to me. In either case, should any further responses accuse me or others of being psychopaths you will be ignored and reported as appropriate.

It's a "you" directed towards those who bemoan something being lost by not having a universally "evil" race that are all much weaker than a mid-level character against which the PCs are encouraged to kill on sight and ultimately commit total genocide if possible while literally being labeled as "good" in block text on the piece of paper describing the aspects of the character by the omniscient judge of the game.

I don't see there is much denying indulging in a fantasy involving invading the homes of creatures to kill everything that moves, possibly dissecting it for valuable body parts and seizing everything not nailed down with the singular goal of gaining great wealth and becoming even better at killing things is an expression of a less than healthy part of one's psyche. And being so defensive about it and level threats at people for pointing it out is pretty immature. But I suppose I could have better conveyed that the psychopathic tendencies lie in just about everyone's psyche.

I am guilty of it, I wouldn't be here if I wasn't. But I recognize it is less than ideal and it would be better if the world had more layers and complexity. That villains should be villains because of the actions they elect to do and not because of the people they are born to. And very likely warfare happens with particular people and it cannot be resolved peacefully, but I needn't declare everyone with those physical features is necessarily evil in all aspects of their existence and that I am perfectly good and the solution is to purge every last one of them from the world.... rather, instead, the ideal situation would be to win the war then negotiate a peace and let future generations have better relations.


And, really, Orcs and Goblins are an improvement on what was there before-- before they were the stand-ins, fantasy (everything from westerns to Conan and Tarzan) generally depicted non-white peoples exactly in the manner that D&D tended to depict Orcs and Goblins and such-- it was just now instead of demonizing and advocating violence against a particular ethnic group, instead you had a more generalized "evil, sub-human foreigner people" of which there were none in real life and therefore far more harmless. But there is a reason why they are described living in "tribes" with "shaman" with "chieftains". They are kind of just those old ugly racist depictions with a coat of paint. Once one understands that, both embrace and subvert it in equal measures.


Now the concept of the zombie has arisen to fulfill that role. As an allegory, zombies convey far less xenophobic implications as literally anyone can become a zombie, and it is often most dramatic to have people the protagonist knows become zombies. Although I have heard some ways in which the allegory of zombies can carry with it some pretty negative connotations.
 

It's been interesting in the game where I'm a player, with a DM who was a player in a previous game I ran. He's a big fan of moral quandaries and ambiguity, whereas I prefer a rather simplified, black-and-white morality. We both had a little trouble adapting to the other's perspective.

My feeling is that there are plenty of races presumed to have a culturally rich background. Orcs are for pummeling villages and being pummeled by heroes. They get the evil incarnate treatment in my setting because I have better vectors to explore cultural significance than orcs.

Aside from the aforementioned zombies, few humanoids so effectively fill the "kill with impunity" category as the traditionally defined orc. Their lust for war is implacable and at odds with every other civilization, and that's all that really matters from an in-game morality point of view. The factors bringing them into conflict with other humanoids are intractable and systemic. There's no questioning the righteousness of orc slaying in my games, and I like having that narrative arc available.

Nothing wrong with giving orcs a little humanity if that's your thing. I think it's definitely worth a DM's moment of time to clearly establish at session 0 how he approaches ethical issues like this. For me, I say let there be WAAAGH!
 

I don't really see the point of orcs. You could basically treat them as another tribe of humans but still use the culture described for orcs and not really lose anything. Also, it's generally been my experience that when you take away the "inherently evil" trope you get more player attempts to capture enemies, which is handy for helping a DM turn an adversary into a recurring villain.
 

I think that's fine for specific setting lore, but I don't think it works well with a more generalized system-game like D&D. To point back upwards at how 13th Age, which uses a specific setting addresses orcs, I think that's fine in a microcosm. I don't think it's appropriate for larger more "kitchen sink" games like D&D though. Larger system-games should always err on the general, and allow the DM to get more specific.
What do you mean by "general" and "specific"? Yes, my example blurb was fairly specific, but so is the actual MM entry, which talks about Gruumsh and Corellon and all that lore. In principle, I don't see how any of (a) "orcs are a natural species"; (b) "orcs are a natural-ish species but their creator was evil and engineered them accordingly"; or (c) "orcs are unnatural monsters produced by black magic" is more general or specific than any other. You can add or subtract detail from any of those as you think appropriate.

I'm not going to speculate on the origin of the word. Arguing to "the definition of the word" is a poor argument, especially when something has undergone many permutations to reach the point it is at now.
Sorry. I was addressing your comment about what they were "classically", not what they are now.

I never suggested any method was wrong, merely that there are certain methods I don't like.
I'd like to acknowledge this expressly, and thank you for exchanging opinions with understanding and civility.
 

Into the Woods

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