D&D 2E Is 5e Basically Becoming Pathfinder 2e?

[Tony Vargas]

In D&D and D&D-like RPGs, it's numbers on a character sheet. In Primetime Adventures, it's not. In Fate, it's a lot less mechanical and a lot more descriptive. D&D and Pathfinder are just one corner of RPGs.

I've played FATE, you still have mechanical underpinnings for your character's capabilities. It's less, a difference in degree, but not kind, it's still a game.

The /is/ Freestyle RP out there (less the 'G'), and improv theater, for that matter, FWIW.

 

[MoonSong]

I disagree. This is absolutely the reasons why most DMs I know decline to play with those options. In fact, it smacks of your own biases, not theirs.

Well, I do it because of experience. Might be flexible with a proven DM, but if I don't yet know the DM in question and all I get is "No feats, no multiclassing" or "Basic Only" wiht no more nuance, then I can safely assume they aren't the DM for me.

I'd give it very serious thought.

Which is better - running a game I don't like, or running no game at all?

IMO neither of those are particularly 'sad things' at all.
Er...it's very possible to have a character act non-traditionally in a Gygaxian game...

It's just that not everything needs to be reflected in the mechanics.

Lan-"a caster that refuses to blow stuff up is my kind of caster, as it means they won't be blowing me up at the same time"-efan

But mechanics get in the way too? And having a mechanics gives you agency. Without mechanics a spellcaster is at the mercy of the DM, and by sellcaster I mean sorcerer/witch, not one of those ugly Mages/MUs

Personally, I think you've got right-brained and left-brained and I think you're on the right track (generally) with the right-brained = rules light and left = rules heavy. I do think though that both can be as creative as the other so I'd be very careful there.

In my experience it's a matter of longevity. The right brained folks may be really creative out of the gate, but they need to learn the skill of impersonating depth. The left brained folks will create depth out of the gate, but it'll take a good while before players will necessarily deem them creative.

Different approaches but it all balances out over time so long as you're with a game that meets your needs and a DM you like.

KB

Let me tell you one secret, the left/right brained is a myth. Wishful thinking, the result of a premature abduction at best and an outright scam designed to sell seminars, workshops and self-help books at worst. In truth there is no serious evidence of it. Just like with learning styles, personality types and other "feel well" pseudoscience. -different parts of the brain indeed control different stuff, but they bear almost no relationship with creativity in fact the more creative you are the more likely you are to use both at the same time. what you ust did was basically "Redefine and discriminate", you redefined the opposition as belonging to a suppossedly inferior group while placing your side on "the obviously superior side".

 

[Lanefan]

But mechanics get in the way too? And having a mechanics gives you agency. Without mechanics a spellcaster is at the mercy of the DM

Er...the whole game's at the mercy of the DM; why should casters be any different?

And yes, mechanics do get in the way; thus the less of 'em there are the better.

and by sellcaster I mean sorcerer/witch, not one of those ugly Mages/MUs

I kinda mean both, in that in my game MU's work mechanically much like 3e Sorcerers did (no pre-memorization - you've got so many slots per level per day and if a spell's in your book and you've got a slot left of that spell's level you can cast it) only they still study and learn their spells like conventional MUs always have.

Lan-"they're trying to use 'witch' as a class name again? 30 years of Wiccans telling 'em to sod off with that and they still don't get it...sigh..."-efan

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Lan-"they're trying to use 'witch' as a class name again? 30 years of Wiccans telling 'em to sod off with that and they still don't get it...sigh..."-efan

Wiccans appropriated the archaic form of "witch" and don't even pronounce it correctly. They don't own the word.

 

[Lanefan]

Wiccans appropriated the archaic form of "witch" and don't even pronounce it correctly. They don't own the word.

Not so sure about that..."ownership" of words does tend to change over time as both language and society* evolve; though to go much further with this would quickly take me way outside the allowable forum guidelines.

* - and trademarks. For example, wasn't one of the older-edition level titles for the D&D Ranger once Pathfinder?

Lan-"blessed be"-efan

 

[Kobold Boots]

Let me tell you one secret, the left/right brained is a myth. Wishful thinking, the result of a premature abduction at best and an outright scam designed to sell seminars, workshops and self-help books at worst. In truth there is no serious evidence of it. Just like with learning styles, personality types and other "feel well" pseudoscience. -different parts of the brain indeed control different stuff, but they bear almost no relationship with creativity in fact the more creative you are the more likely you are to use both at the same time. what you ust did was basically "Redefine and discriminate", you redefined the opposition as belonging to a suppossedly inferior group while placing your side on "the obviously superior side".

I think it's best for me to add you to my block list, which is happening immediately after posting this message.

I've got no issue when someone corrects me, even when they do so in error. I do have an issue with someone who takes an opportunity to share information while waving the discrimination flag and assumes that they understand what I mean.

Be well.
KB

 

[prosfilaes]

And yes, mechanics do get in the way; thus the less of 'em there are the better.

Then why do you play such a mechanic heavy system? There's a lot of systems out there that manage to do without a 256 page book of rules for players. Strip the setting-specific information out, and I doubt there's many systems that aren't D&D or off-brand knock-offs that meet that. GURPS? Champions? A few other games known for rules grinding? TWERPS struck me as functionally unusable, but ...

Character creation: two stats, Mental and Physical. Two pools, Magic and HP. For a starting character, Mental + Physical = 20. Magic and HP max out at Mental and Physical, respectively, and heal 1d6 a day. Attacks do 1d6 damage and require a roll against the appropriate stat, default magical attacks cost a point of magic or 3MP for 2d6, or 6MP for 3d6, etc. Other magical uses cost a GM set cost of MP. Attack modifiers are set by GM. Each level up, players can add one point to stats or two points directly to one of their pools.

There, a one-paragraph RPG. I'm sure it would flesh out quite nicely in one page. If the less the better, why not something like that instead of 5E?

 

[Tony Vargas]

There, a one-paragraph RPG. I'm sure it would flesh out quite nicely in one page. If the less the better, why not something like that instead of 5E?

Lan doesn't play 5e, he plays 1e - which is far more complex, with a baroque assemblage of arbitrary dice mechanics thrown together like a tossed salad.

The way that gets to "less of 'em (mechanics) there are the better," is simple: the mechanics in 1e are so whacked and un-usable that you quickly learn to play without most of 'em, not just by changing the rules as a DM, but by choosing your actions in-game as a player to avoid the areas actually covered by the mechanics - which, mercifully, outside of combat, are surprisingly few...

 

[Lanefan]

The way that gets to "less of 'em (mechanics) there are the better," is simple: the mechanics in 1e are so whacked and un-usable that you quickly learn to play without most of 'em, not just be changing the rules

Actually, mostly just by changing the rules...and many of those changes involve dropping the mechanically messy bits...

but by choosing your actions in-game to avoid the areas actually covered by the mechanics - which, mercifully, outside of combat, are surprisingly few...

Interesting thought - I don't think any of us do this deliberately and am trying to think of instances where it would happen unintentionally. Coming up dry...

 

[Tony Vargas]

...and many of those changes involve dropping the mechanically messy bits...

Yep. Be selective enough about what rules you follow and any system can be 'lite.'

Interesting thought - I don't think any of us do this deliberately and am trying to think of instances where it would happen unintentionally. Coming up dry...

Much of the "CaW" style is doing just that: making decisions that drive the flow of the game to corners not covered by the rules so that you can leverage DM rulings in your favor. Old-school, we call it "smart play."

It contrasts with optimization or "CaS"-style, in which you stick to what the rules do cover, particularly where you can leverage the RAW in your favor.