D&D 5E Take Infinity Damage
pming
Legend
Hiya!
As some of you may know here on the forums, I am what I would probably call a "Killer DM" (for nowadays anyway; back in 1e I didn't have this title...well, not much anyway...
). Ahem. Anyhoo...I think it all boils down to if the Player(s) felt that it was a more or less 'unknowable surprise' or not.
My players, on occasion, give me a bit of "contention" when a PC is struck down by some singular die roll. When I tell them why, and what they ignored, they usually sigh, flagellate themselves with a wet PHB, and make a mental note to pay more attention to the game.
As long as you, the DM, have done your job in the Foreshadowing department...you should be golden. Even if the PC's didn't discover whatever that/those clue(s) were...as long as you can show them or point it out to them after the game, they should understand.
For example, if they are in an old mine infested with goblins. They're kicking ass and taking names, make a turn down another corridor, and you suddenly spring a "Dex Save, DC20 as the floor opens up under you, a lake of lava 30 feet under you! You fail, you die!". That would be OK or Not Ok, depending on if you have put a means to discover that the old mines were abandoned because the workers discovered what they were mining down to. An old journel mentioning it, an old sign with "STOP! Lava below! NO MINING!" flipped over in some chamber, and/or some NPC/Monster that tried to say "Wait! I have secrets!" before the raging barbarian chopped his head off. If the Players don't bother to see what 'that old book' was, didn't flip over the old upside-down sign in the corner of some chamber, and killed a goblin who would have told them the 'secret' of the mine...that's on the Players. Not you. Totally fine to have the "Save or die" thing. If, however, you didn't have any of that...well, how would the Players/PC's have any inkling that there was an active lava zone 30' below them? In that case, yeah, they should yell at you. I mean, the miners who discovered the lava would likely have put up signs, rope, etc warning folk about it lest any brash kids/teens decide to try and play there; basically, an "Enter at your own risk" thing. It would be logical for these sorts of clues to be available for discovery by the PC's. If you fail to include these logical conclusions, well, that would be on you.
It's all about fairness. If the Players see a Save or Die as "unfair", even after you explain (after the game/adventure, obviously!) that they simply ignored or missed every clue...well, not much you can do about that. Most players, I would hope, would understand.
So...feel free (hell, I encourage you) to put in "save or die" traps and situations every now and then just to keep up the premise that 'adventuring' is a high risk / high reward "job". Just remember to Foreshadow in a couple places. If the Players miss/ignore these clues...it's all on them. It's not your job as a DM to help the PC's succeed. Always remember that.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
As some of you may know here on the forums, I am what I would probably call a "Killer DM" (for nowadays anyway; back in 1e I didn't have this title...well, not much anyway...
). Ahem. Anyhoo...I think it all boils down to if the Player(s) felt that it was a more or less 'unknowable surprise' or not.My players, on occasion, give me a bit of "contention" when a PC is struck down by some singular die roll. When I tell them why, and what they ignored, they usually sigh, flagellate themselves with a wet PHB, and make a mental note to pay more attention to the game.
As long as you, the DM, have done your job in the Foreshadowing department...you should be golden. Even if the PC's didn't discover whatever that/those clue(s) were...as long as you can show them or point it out to them after the game, they should understand.
For example, if they are in an old mine infested with goblins. They're kicking ass and taking names, make a turn down another corridor, and you suddenly spring a "Dex Save, DC20 as the floor opens up under you, a lake of lava 30 feet under you! You fail, you die!". That would be OK or Not Ok, depending on if you have put a means to discover that the old mines were abandoned because the workers discovered what they were mining down to. An old journel mentioning it, an old sign with "STOP! Lava below! NO MINING!" flipped over in some chamber, and/or some NPC/Monster that tried to say "Wait! I have secrets!" before the raging barbarian chopped his head off. If the Players don't bother to see what 'that old book' was, didn't flip over the old upside-down sign in the corner of some chamber, and killed a goblin who would have told them the 'secret' of the mine...that's on the Players. Not you. Totally fine to have the "Save or die" thing. If, however, you didn't have any of that...well, how would the Players/PC's have any inkling that there was an active lava zone 30' below them? In that case, yeah, they should yell at you. I mean, the miners who discovered the lava would likely have put up signs, rope, etc warning folk about it lest any brash kids/teens decide to try and play there; basically, an "Enter at your own risk" thing. It would be logical for these sorts of clues to be available for discovery by the PC's. If you fail to include these logical conclusions, well, that would be on you.
It's all about fairness. If the Players see a Save or Die as "unfair", even after you explain (after the game/adventure, obviously!) that they simply ignored or missed every clue...well, not much you can do about that. Most players, I would hope, would understand.
So...feel free (hell, I encourage you) to put in "save or die" traps and situations every now and then just to keep up the premise that 'adventuring' is a high risk / high reward "job". Just remember to Foreshadow in a couple places. If the Players miss/ignore these clues...it's all on them. It's not your job as a DM to help the PC's succeed. Always remember that.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
jgsugden
Legend
Save or die is only truly a problem when the PCs did not have the option to face it.
If there is an 'essentially' Save or Die roll to be made, the PCs should have an opportunity to take another path, avoid the encounter, etc... Further, they should have enough hints that they should be able to predict that save or die is on the table.
As an example, I might have the PCs in a small dungeon that they need to cross within a little more than an hour. They can try to cross the stone bridge that is about to be consumed by lava, or go around the edge of the lake of lava. They'll save at least 15 minutes if they take the bridge. The bridge is starting to fall apart with whole sections is crumbling into lava. They have to decide between safety or speed - If they're fast enough they might be able to get a short rest while fleeing and replenish their resources, but if they take the longer path there is less risk of falling in lava. I won't tell the PCs that there will be two encounters along the edge of the lake and only one on the bridge... they don't get every piece of info they might want to know, only enough to know there are risks with taking the bridge.
If there is an 'essentially' Save or Die roll to be made, the PCs should have an opportunity to take another path, avoid the encounter, etc... Further, they should have enough hints that they should be able to predict that save or die is on the table.
As an example, I might have the PCs in a small dungeon that they need to cross within a little more than an hour. They can try to cross the stone bridge that is about to be consumed by lava, or go around the edge of the lake of lava. They'll save at least 15 minutes if they take the bridge. The bridge is starting to fall apart with whole sections is crumbling into lava. They have to decide between safety or speed - If they're fast enough they might be able to get a short rest while fleeing and replenish their resources, but if they take the longer path there is less risk of falling in lava. I won't tell the PCs that there will be two encounters along the edge of the lake and only one on the bridge... they don't get every piece of info they might want to know, only enough to know there are risks with taking the bridge.
The Crimson Binome
Hero
The concept of infinite damage is problematic. Lava is dangerous, sure, but it's not more dangerous than a twenty-foot-tall giant swinging an axe at you. It's not more dangerous than being swallowed by a gargantuan dragon and being dissolved by its stomach acid.
Figure out how lethal lava is, relative to other data points that are actually listed. If you have something that's save-or-take-4d10+40 rather than save-or-die, then it should still be plenty scary. If the threat of taking ~65 damage isn't scary, then you have bigger problems to worry about.
Figure out how lethal lava is, relative to other data points that are actually listed. If you have something that's save-or-take-4d10+40 rather than save-or-die, then it should still be plenty scary. If the threat of taking ~65 damage isn't scary, then you have bigger problems to worry about.
Warmaster Horus
Explorer
5e has very few save-or-outright-die events from what I've seen thus far. Besides Power Word Kill, the worst I've seen is something like "take a ton of damage and if reduced to zero hp the character is dead/turned to dust/becomes a chia pet".
S
Sunseeker
Guest
If the party has been given ample warning and options to play it safe, then I've done my duty. Generally I will provide a last minute save for someone else to attempt to grab the person and stop their fall. Failing that well....Tonight at 9 tune in to learn that yes, fire is still hot!
I guess I would consider lava a deadly Tier 2 effect, because I don't frequently see Tier 1 heroes fighting around lava, and I could totally imagine Tier 3 heros whipping out some craziness and surviving the lava. (10d10 damage is 55 average damage which is about as same as a fall of 160 feet.) Then I'd add one of those scary "If this reduces a creature to 0 hit points, the creature is instantly incinerated" clauses.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
I think the most sensible thing to do is to run down a list and compare: "do I think you're more likely to survive this, or falling on lava".
http://www.iflscience.com/environment/volcano-lava-cold-fall-survive/
But that's an extreme example. Similar, but slightly different is this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qinghe_Special_Steel_Corporation_disaster
6 people survived, and at least one one of them claims to have gotten molten steel (twice the temperature of lava, and way more effective at transferring heat) on their clothes.
http://www.iflscience.com/environment/volcano-lava-cold-fall-survive/
But that's an extreme example. Similar, but slightly different is this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qinghe_Special_Steel_Corporation_disaster
6 people survived, and at least one one of them claims to have gotten molten steel (twice the temperature of lava, and way more effective at transferring heat) on their clothes.
Similar Threads
