Rules Light/Rules Heavy Graph

[Aldarc]

For me, I rate complexity in three different ways.

When evaluating RPGs, I care a lot about on-table and DM-prep complexity not passing a threshold, with on-table being weighted more. Character creation/advancement I don't care about complexity as long as it serves a purpose.

So could one hypothetically just use the average of the three pillars of complexity to gain a sense for the system's overall complexity?

 

[Blue]

So could one hypothetically just use the average of the three pillars of complexity to gain a sense for the system's overall complexity?

I wouldn't take a straight average, but a weighted average could work. They have a very different affect on the game.

Something complex at the table the consistently slows down play should have a much bigger impact then once every few months character creation/advancement. As a percentage of man-hours spent, the first vastly outweights the second. DM prep time only affects one person, not the whole table, but if it discourages a DM from running the system in the first place that's another issue, but that's usually a threshold.

So sure, do a weighted average of all three based on ratio of extra man-hours spent and that will give you a single complexity. But that oversimplification misses out on both "some character creation complexity is often welcome" and the "too much DM prep can kill a system regardless of anything else" elements.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I haven't played any of those -- are they all more rules-heavy than GURPS, Rolemaster, and Hero?

I have read the rules for Aftermath and attempted Hero System. I actually played some of GURPS, Rolemaster and Rifts, and, to me, Rifts was the most complex of them.

Some games are also more complex to play than to generate characters for, and vice versa. And some games really spike in complexity, the more supplements are released for it.

 

[Lanefan]

I wouldn't take a straight average, but a weighted average could work. They have a very different affect on the game.

Something complex at the table the consistently slows down play should have a much bigger impact then once every few months character creation/advancement.

Keep in mind that overly complex character generation and-or advancement can act as a discouragement to players, without whom there's no game.

It's linked to complexity at the table, though - chances are very good that a character that is highly complex and fiddly to generate is going to be highly complex and fiddly to play.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I have read the rules for Aftermath and attempted Hero System. I actually played some of GURPS, Rolemaster and Rifts, and, to me, Rifts was the most complex of them.

Some games are also more complex to play than to generate characters for, and vice versa. And some games really spike in complexity, the more supplements are released for it.

I’ve not seen Aftermath, but I’ve played GURPS & HERO. I have to say...HERO has at least one martial maneuver involving a square root.

IMHO, RIFTS- which I have also played- rules aren’t really the source of complexity. It’s the wahoo kitchen sink approach to the fluff of the setting as a whole, with not even a hint of lip service given towards mechanical game balance. I mean, the Glitter Boy and Vagabond OCCs are in the core rulebook.

 

[Blue]

Keep in mind that overly complex character generation and-or advancement can act as a discouragement to players, without whom there's no game.

It's linked to complexity at the table, though - chances are very good that a character that is highly complex and fiddly to generate is going to be highly complex and fiddly to play.

Creation complexity and table complexity can be related, but that doesn't mean they are the same.

Let me take 5e for example. Picture the complexity when you first started playing/running -- before you had built up a working knowledge of the classes and spells.

Now consider adding just the character portions of XGtE (chapters 1 & 3) to the PHB. You've just increased character creation/leveling complexity a good deal. There are a lot more choices for subclasses, a load mroe intereactions if you allow multiclassing, a bunch of new spells.

You've definitely increased character creation/advancement complexity, say 30% to pull out a number. But did you have a linear increase in complexity at the table? No. You may have had a slight increase as there's less overlap in spells or something, but your complexity for within a session is pretty flat.

Amber Diceless had a light mechanical table complexity, while it had a more involved character creation process that included as part of it several bidding wars between players.

Take the "rating 10" HERO system. It's character creation and advancement are extremely open-ended and math-tastic. That fully deserved to be the heavy-weight champion of character creation. But at the table, it's maybe a 8. There's a limited number of options, they are spelled out. Combat (as a proxy for mechanical complexity) takes a long time, but part of that is the many-rounds nature of the combat in order to represent the genre. I'm not saying it's not heavy, but the table complexity rating is not the same weight as the creation/advancement complexity.

And to take a step further, HERO has been a staple in the Supers genre for so long through so many editions and expansions in part because of how all-inclusive the creation system is. No system is for everyone and this isn't an exception, but continued commercial success I think shows that creation complexity need not be a turn off for players.

Again, that's a big call on the system. Twilight 2000 had a complex character creation that didn't have the payoff for that level of complexity -- there it easily could drive players off like you said.

So an appropriate level of character complexity to support mechanically the genre seems to be the sweet spot, even if that is higher in complexity. And while character complexity often informs table complexity, I feel it's a mistake to assume that they move in lockstep.

 

[aramis erak]

I haven't played any of those -- are they all more rules-heavy than GURPS, Rolemaster, and Hero?

Rifts isn't if you restrict to corebook. Palladium's core mechanic is dead simple - like D&D 5E, the complexity is special rules buried in various places in the classes and monsters.

Phoenix command, absolutely. It takes skilled PC players typically one to two minutes and a calculator to work out one attack. Add another 2-4 minutes if it hits. And that's without narrative description time; on the other hand, the mechanics provide much of the narrative description for wounds. My "comfortable with SpaceMaster" group found PC totally unplayable due to the complexity.

Similar for anything by Tritac Systems - hit locations are 4x4 cm. Rules are formula heavy and almost require a calculator to use. The three tries never got past 1 session - two of them because character gen was so involved.

Space Opera - Take Classic Traveller. Now, give it 200 skills instead of 60. And each one is a special rule unto itself. Also, change it to having 5 classes which determine skill costs, with skills gained by which career and how long one serves, with certain (sometimes unmeetable) prerequisite skill purchases from Career. In play, each skill has it's special rule for determining what percentage to roll. (But, hey, to protect PC's, it's 10% harder to hit a PC.)

Again, however, I must raise issue with describing games that front-load all the complexity into Char Gen as "Heavy" systems. Most notable amongst these is Hero. All its complexity is in Character generation; the mechanics of play are under 50 pages, but the powers list is 200+. Most of them work in very straightforward ways, and the expansions and limitations clearly modify the purchase of in-game effects, not of story mode.... so my 3d6 RKA Volcano Gun and your 3d6 RKA Radiation Gun work the same in the mechanics, unless you or I have added some side effects. My volcano gun adds a cumulative transform (as the power), while yours adds a radiation burst (line area effect 1 pip drain body)... It's daunting until one actually starts to use it.

As [MENTION=20564]Blue[/MENTION] notes, at-table, DM Prep, and Character Gen are three different areas, and GURPS and Hero are high only on Character Gen, moderate on DM Prep, and low in at-table. Phoenix Command is high in All three areas, and in Character Gen, worse than GURPS by far.

 

[Alexander Kalinowski]

Gotta throw in my lot. GURPS can range from 6 to 10, depending how many rules you choose to use. RIFTS isn't so much complex as it is disorganized. It's no more complex than AD&D 2E. Everything else is a meme, imho. Phoenix Command, however, is a 10. The Warhammer 40K RPGs are by no means more complex than D&D 3.x, except maybe Deathwatch RPG.

I would rate Hârnmaster a 7.
Cyberpunk 2020 also a 7.
Shadowrun 8 or 9 (1E probably 1 point less).
Apocalypse World/PbtA maybe a 2? Very unsure about this though; it probably depends a lot on the game/playbook.
Trail of Cthulhu is a 2. Mutant City Blues a 3.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

RIFTS isn't so much complex as it is disorganized.

That’s a good way to put it.