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Are we overthinking the warlord?

It was a defining feature because it was unique, and at-will at level 1.
Other classes had the ability to buff and heal. So that aspect wasn't special.
Yeah, I'm being a dink.

Mostly, I'm mostly poking at the idea that "all warlords grant actions" when the vast majority actually kinda don't. But there is a point to me being a dink. (At least this time.) When designing a class, you don't always look at what most warlords do or even what all warlords do, you look at what only warlords do. The unique stuff.

So, yeah, a 5e warlord should absolutely grant bonus actions of some kind. Not because "warlords grant actions" but because it's a cool mechanic that fits the class and is unique.

Similarly, the 5e warlord should do things that the 4e warlord could not or did not, because they fit the concept and are unique.

Which I'm totally game for, it just seems that mearls and many others don't accept that possibility, because they keep giving them shallow do-nothing abilities and trying to cram it into the fighter chassis.
But, however, most warlord fans on this forum are not, and are pretty instant the warlord remain a leader.

Just to clarify, you're saying you think there aren't enough abilities to merit the warlord being its own class? Not sure I buy that if so.
Such as?

You do not. The Bard, Barbarian, and Ranger off the top of my head all launched with 2 subclasses. Saying that the warlord can't do the same because the other classes now have expanded material is a bit disingenuous, but I don't think that's what you were going for to be fair.
The key word there being "launched". The intent was ALWAYS to have more subclasses after the PHB.
Now every class has at least four, with most having five or six. And you can bet when they launch the artificer and mystic in a published book, they won't have the minimum two subclasses.

What are six possible warlord subclasses?

Tactical, Bravura, and Inspiring are all different archetypes that can play and narratively present a broad range of story options. Some of the past options like resourceful might also be included if you swapped their focus to a more skill or exploration focused path.
Those are names. What's their story? What's the two or three paragraphs of flavour that precedes those subclasses?

When someone says they're a "bravura warlord", what does that mean What does it look like? How would you describe that to someone interested in D&D who knows none of the mechanics?

As mellored said, action granting was something they could do at the start, and many of the best rated powers from the optimization side of things were centered around that concept.
I agree. See above in my response to Mellored

While I mostly agree with the balance argument, class balance itself has always been somewhat shaky in 5e and I would rather they focus their efforts on being evocative and unique at this point. A great example I think of this is the pacifist paladin option in Xanathars. I think that subclass is crap, because it doesn't do enough to change how the paladin plays to fit its supposed narrative space, and was even trimmed down from its playtest version. I'd rather have a less-balanced option that more accurately represents the concept and changes the playstyle of the paladin than a few ribbon abilities that don't amount to much, and same thing for the warlord. They were willing to experiment with that ridiculously OP Lore Wizard, how about Mearls tosses out an overpowered warlock and we can try walking it back for once.
Well, Mearls is never going to do a warlord beyond a "thought experiment" on a podcast.
Any warlord is going to be 3rd party. Which means it has to be that much tighter. WotC can get away with "close enough" balance as they're official. But a 3PP has to nail the balance.

Personally, I've long been an advocate of attacks not actions. An action is too much, but an attack can work. The warlord uses their action to direct a character to action. The ally uses their reaction to move half their speed, make a single attack, or cast a cantrip.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
IIRC if you are suffering a lost limb it still requires a Regenerate spell or similar effect to cure, which is more of what I was getting at to differentiate it from a generic HP restoring option like cure wounds.
Nod. Of course, no amount of hps loss actually severs a limb in 5e. It takes magic, like the Sword of Sharpness, to do that - 1 time in 400. Presumably, you can cut bits off a helpless victim, too, but, like the Sword of Sharpness, the effects of that are not hp damage, but are determined by the DM.

Short rest abilities are fine, the problem is twofold:
1) your example abilities are very weak
2) Once those abilities are expended, you're back to being a fighter. When a warlock runs out of spells, he's still a warlock.
There's also a conceptual problem. What, exactly, has resting got to do with it? I could see a Warlord setting up a battle plan with his party as part of a short rest, for instance. Meh, I suppose 'sleeping on it' will help you come up with new plans, and let you be fresh for improvising one late that day. Sorta. :shrug:

But, what would be more interesting and unique, and really /very/ limiting for Gambits would be a 1/encounter or 1/enemy/day limitation. You pull a trick on an enemy in combat, you're probably not going to pull it again, successfully, right away.

Rests shouldn't recharge the warlord's gambits, they should recharge those 'deep reserves' his allies call upon (like HD).

Which I'm totally game for, it just seems that mearls and many others don't accept that possibility, because they keep giving them shallow do-nothing abilities and trying to cram it into the fighter chassis.
Nod. The Fighter is hard-coded tank before you even get to the sub-classes. Heck, a 'null fighter' (with no sub-class abilities) would be an arguably-viable tank, if a strictly inferior one.

Just to clarify, you're saying you think there aren't enough abilities to merit the warlord being its own class? Not sure I buy that if so.
Each class that was in the 4e PH1 probably had more powers by 2010 than all the classes in the 5e PH have, put together. The Warlord, I think, came in about 3rd in that pack, after the Fighter & Wizard.

Tactical, Bravura, and Inspiring are all different archetypes that can play and narratively present a broad range of story options. Some of the past options like resourceful might also be included if you swapped their focus to a more skill or exploration focused path.
Resourceful, IMHO, really cries out to be the Schrodinger Warlord (or Boy Scout, if you prefer). The one who whips out the right tool for the job even though there was no reason to expect he'd have it. Also the only warlord that even vaguely suggest 'combat medic' to me.

As mellored said, action granting was something they could do at the start, and many of the best rated powers from the optimization side of things were centered around that concept. While I mostly agree with the balance argument, class balance itself has always been somewhat shaky in 5e and I would rather they focus their efforts on being evocative and unique at this point.
Evocative has trumped balance in 5e from the start.
 

unknowable

Explorer
You can, in 1d4+1 hrs, go from being seconds away from death, after taking the most grievous wound the game can model with just hp loss, all the way back to full hps, without magic, nor even first aid of the crudest sort. (ie: if you're left 'dying' from your wound by a single attack that was 1hp shy of instantly killing you, you can stabilize by succeeding on 3 death after already failing two. 1d4 hours later, you wake up, and can take a short rest (AFAICT, those 1d4 hrs of unconsciousness do not count as resting), at the end of which you spend your HD, and, assuming you roll reasonably well, get back up to full hps.)
A low level fighter can, with a lucky roll, go from 1hp to fully healed in an instant with Second Wind.
It doesn't get more core than HD & 1st level fighters.
Heck, they're both in the basic pdf.

Sure, not the same levels of gonzo though.
HP is an abstraction for sure, but yelling people to health with the same reliability of magic is unlikely to happen in 5e, it just hasn't been set up with that sort of theming so far.

Second wind is self only and represents the fighters ability to fight on, to regain energy and to ignore their aching muscles and minor cuts. It is in the name.

HD are still a resource and have time constraints attatched.

As i said before, i can see it being a bard achetype... or maybe a weak fighter achetype. But I am doubtful that wotc is going to implement a full on non magic healer that can compete with magic healing. It would be odd.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
A potential 5E warlord needs more healing than the 2/short rest healing word ability the 4E warlord had. It won't be as much as a cleric but what do you guys think of adding in healing surges (heroic surges?) on top of the healing word type ability as a class ability?

I'm not sure how much they will heal but looking at the cleric turn channel divinity (life/light) for ideas. 2d10+level with another use at perhaps level 6 refreshes on a short rest. This would be on top of the 2/short rest ability of "healing word" (1d8+ level). A level 6 warlord in effect could heal.

1d8+6 6/long rest
2d10+6 30' 6/long rest 30

Ball park figures its roughly 6 cure spells and 6 prayer of healing.

The inspiration one could add charisma bonus to that number and I can design some exploits they can also choose but that is the base healing amount? Not as good as a cleric using 100% of their spell slots obviously but it seems like a nice amount to me. Lvl 3 for comparison.

1d8+3 6/long rest.
2d10+3 30' /3 long rest.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Sure, not the same levels of gonzo though.
You create the gonzo in how you describe things.

HP is an abstraction for sure, but yelling people to health with the same reliability of magic is unlikely to happen in 5e
Seriously, in genre, how reliable (and safe!) is magic? Not very.

And, what's likely and what would be a good idea can be very different things.

Second wind is self only and represents the fighters ability to fight on, to regain energy and to ignore their aching muscles and minor cuts. It is in the name.
Nod. And inspiring word is the warlord's ability to get non-fighters to do the same thing. Fighters aren't supernatural or anything, they're just /really/ determined. The right motivation and anyone might pull that off, even if only once in their life. A hero, like any other PC, more often.

HD are still a resource and have time constraints attatched.
HD make a great resource to peg Warlord healing as a daily resource without having to give it spell-resource equivalents, so that's to the good. The time it takes to spend them is for normal (for adventurers) circumstances, as the fighter's second wind demonstrates, in extremis, instant recovery is possible.

I am doubtful that wotc is going to implement a full on non magic healer that can compete with magic healing.
Meh. Healing is one of many things magic does. In the PH, non-magical classes do little more than DPR, yet the Warlock and Paladin are right up there competing with that DPR (really, everyone can manage some serious damage if they really want to). 5e isn't wedded to niche protection as badly as the classic game was.

A potential 5E warlord needs more healing than the 2/short rest healing word ability the 4E warlord had.
It was really 2/encounter, since short rests were, well, short.

what do you guys think of adding in healing surges (heroic surges?) on top of the healing word type ability as a class ability?
5e HD seem to map pretty strongly to surges, using them as a basis for warlord healing, though it might look like just a call-back to 4e, could actually make a lot of sense. It puts the Warlord's extra healing on a decidedly limited schedule, since HD are the slowest-recovering resource in 5e.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
You create the gonzo in how you describe things.

Seriously, in genre, how reliable (and safe!) is magic? Not very.

And, what's likely and what would be a good idea can be very different things.

Nod. And inspiring word is the warlord's ability to get non-fighters to do the same thing. Fighters aren't supernatural or anything, they're just /really/ determined. The right motivation and anyone might pull that off, even if only once in their life. A hero, like any other PC, more often.

HD make a great resource to peg Warlord healing as a daily resource without having to give it spell-resource equivalents, so that's to the good. The time it takes to spend them is for normal (for adventurers) circumstances, as the fighter's second wind demonstrates, in extremis, instant recovery is possible.

Meh. Healing is one of many things magic does. In the PH, non-magical classes do little more than DPR, yet the Warlock and Paladin are right up there competing with that DPR (really, everyone can manage some serious damage if they really want to). 5e isn't wedded to niche protection as badly as the classic game was.

It was really 2/encounter, since short rests were, well, short.

5e HD seem to map pretty strongly to surges, using them as a basis for warlord healing, though it might look like just a call-back to 4e, could actually make a lot of sense. It puts the Warlord's extra healing on a decidedly limited schedule, since HD are the slowest-recovering resource in 5e.

Don't use hit dice, just have the warlord invigorate XYZ hp and name it healing surges. The healing is tied to the warlords level.

Healing Surge
As an action all allies within 30’ of you regain hit points equal to 2d8+ your warlord level. You regain all uses of this feature once you complete a short or long rest.

Level 2 ability they get another one at 6.
 


Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
Seems unnecessarily complicated when HD are sitting there, an acceptably-classic label on a halfway-decent idea.

Oh no.

It takes up to two days to recover all of your HD, and you one get one per level. Additionally, it's the same resource that short rest healing consumes. Throwing out even more ways to burn HD is going to cause problems for anyone who wants to play a supporting role.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Seems unnecessarily complicated when HD are sitting there, an acceptably-classic label on a halfway-decent idea.

You don't get enough of them though. I have considered the warlord granting bonus hit dice as it's healing thing.

The 4E fans want the warlord to heal this is the first time I think I have come up with a decent rate without spellslots.

I discarded the bonus hd thing as it was complicated and getting the number right was a pain.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
You don't get enough of them though. I have considered the warlord granting bonus hit dice as it's healing thing. .
Triggering and adding a bonus or matching dice to the HDs spent could work. The daily budget is still there, basically 1/2 HD since that's the rate at which they recover, but only the bonus or matching die counts toward the theoretical 'budget.'

As a bonus, large or small parties or multiple warlords don't distort the dynamic...
 

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